"Not just his accomplishments, of course." He can be diplomatic about this. "His obstructions as well, the things set against him and how he reacted, appropriately and otherwise. To know a person's true character is to see how they react to these... setbacks, obstacles, as well as their triumphs."
His hand finally shifts on Nathaniel, sitting between his shoulders lightly. Easier to move away from more subtly, if Nathaniel wants to be rid of him, but still a positive presence.
"In the same way you've learned to see the depths of Gladstone's skills and character by seeing these highs and lows, I would love to see the same from yourself. Every step you take in private is one where I don't get to celebrate your triumphs with you, or- or be able to help you with any complications you encounter."
Nathaniel is still deeply skeptical, though now he at least knows what he's skeptical of.
After all, while the biographies of Gladstone had included challenges faced and then overcome through might of arms and the persuasive words of a man who everyone knew would properly rule the empire, he was well aware of the ultimate outcome. Gladstone is famous for his supreme energy and his implacable defiance when the chips were down. He had never given up his cause, even when things looked bad. He had never let anyone insult his honor, or that of his friends. He was powerful and prepared to challenge anyone who wronged him.
Yes, those traits are all admirable in and of themselves, but if Gladstone had failed and gotten lost to history, well, there's a reason he would have been forgotten.
On more personal grounds - he'd learned a long time ago that it's better to keep some things private, even from those who would be pleased simply to see his progress. Moreover, he and Arthur aren't always in agreement on what's important to work on.
Still. Here they are. And he doesn't want to be here forever.
"I'll try." There might not be a lot of conviction to his words, but that's a lot more honest than his tone would've been if he had no intention of trying.
"And at the crux of it all, that's all I'm asking," he says warmly. And he's pretty sure Nathaniel will doubt that, as soon as the words leave his mouth, but it bears repeating.
"And of course, if there's anything I can do to help- I-I suppose prove that I will keep my word-" because he knows Nathaniel's love for hard evidence, or at least repeatable circumstances. "-then please don't hesitate to ask. You have the entirety of my skills at your disposal if you need anything, whenever you like."
It's not very believable. But Nathaniel can use the words as a temporary placeholder until he can figure out what Arthur wants.
He frowns at the second part, drumming his fingers against his leg. He does like hard evidence. He likes to have anything he could hold onto. And when it's something he doesn't understand, it's even more important. But it's difficult to imagine what could offer such momentous proof. Such events don't come along every day. Still, he'd said he'd try, and he'd meant it. He'll just have to see if there's anything that he can tell Arthur about. Even if just the idea of pulling out an unfinished project makes him twitch a little.
"I'll find something." Perhaps a little more confident than he feels, but sometimes the confidence comes first.
He pauses a moment. Well, if he's going to practice getting better talking about something in progress, he can start by asking a probably simple question instead of trying to look it up alone. "What does it mean to be someone's boyfriend?"
His hand pulls away at the question, but only because he's turned somewhat bodily to look at Nathaniel fully with an expression, however brief, of utter bafflement.
Well, if he had a top ten list of questions he never would have expected from Nathaniel, he can certainly strike that one off.
"Uh- well." He sits up a bit more properly - he's not upset, but he's caught flat-footed and a bit frazzled from it. "That- it means that this man is in a romantic relationship with the person in question. I-it's a much more modern term, ah. It implies casual courtship, or at least a point in the relationship where engagement, o-or marriage aren't necessarily on the table just yet."
"Oh." He considers that for a bit. "Why?" He rather baffled by the concept. Marriage can be useful, for various reasons. 'Casual' courtship doesn't have any obvious advantages.
Okay the bluntness of that one has him trying not to laugh, and he doesn't lift his hand fast enough to hide the- frankly somewhat charmed smile at being the asked these questions.
"Well- some people like to make an announcement of the fact they have a partner. It's important to have a-a title for the fact they're committed. They wear it with the same pride you call yourself a magician - it means something important to them. Though in this case, it implies an- I guess an elevation of status, in being a relationship."
His skepticism at this is of a whole different sort. It's a question of other people's strange habits, and so Arthur's smile doesn't hit his pride. There's nothing unreasonable about not knowing something, and Arthur's answer makes him certain that there's no way he would've guessed.
"But being a magician means something about who you are. People can go from in a relationship to not?" He feels that's a logical assumption, as you can go from not being in a relationship to being in one. Apparently. "It's normal to go from being an apprentice to being a magician, but you can't go back. Besides, what sort of status is that? If you're going to get married, you should just do that."
He knows this is all horribly new territory but that doesn't stop it from being inherently kind of hilarious.
"Ah- yes, as a matter of fact. When you aren't in a relationship, it's known as- in my time, eligible, but the more modern parlance seems to use 'single'. And a lot of societies tell us that it's better to be in a relationship than not at all, so it's- common to enter into them, even if you don't feel like you're supposed to, on some level. So the status is, being in a relationship is something of an elevation in a- a social way, rather than a practical one, though the treatment of one can often be used as a prop for the other."
He looks back at Nathaniel now, and Nathaniel will get to see him looking almost completely at ease for once, shoulders lax and face relaxed, though still intensely curious. "I do have to ask - what prompted you to ask me all this? It's- well, I must admit it's not something I expected for you to ask."
He can't say that raises his opinion of other societies, but it doesn't actively lower it. After all, people back home do get married. So it is, more or less, a neutral point.
"Children have to come from somewhere." He knows they don't magically appear after people get married, but he feels that it's close enough. So he supposes that it might be made into a status symbol in order to enhance the appeal of that part.
"Magicians don't have children, so most of us don't get married. But it can be useful to have someone else around." There are apprentices, after all. "It's not bad to have company, either." He's not the most social person, but he does enjoy being around the people he does like.
"I heard someone talking about it. That sort of thing seems common here." He's pretty sure there are at least three 'couples'. A high percentage, but the close quarters allow people to learn if they like to spend time together.
Oh, dear God please don't make him go into the making children aspect of it all, because he can already feel the heat across his cheeks at the thought of trying to explain that, and he rubs across his jaw with his hand to try and disguise the fact.
"Y-yes, um. Ideally, your partner - er, a boyfriend, girlfriend, wife or, or husband or what have you - they should be someone you like. Someone you'd consider a friend or a good companion even if you weren't in love with them. People often..."
He hums as he considers how to word it.
"Often when you have a shared experience with someone, it can help foster that- intensity of feeling, and start a positive relationship. John and I aren't romantic, for example, but the events we have been through together have helped us forge a- a strong companionship. A lot of people here find breaches and floods to be perpetrators of... similiar levels of emotions. And despite knowing these aren't happening to us, the fact we get to experience these lives for some time, to see things literally through their eyes, to feel their love and friendship - it can still leave us affected, and make us want to seek out that person's counterpart on the Barge to discuss these feelings."
He's baffled all over again. They'd covered the reasons why people 'date'. He wouldn't say they're necessarily good ones, but that's true of many things. Now Arthur's adding a completely unexpected swerve to the whole business, as if it's nothing.
"Love is- in fact, the primary reason someone would want a partner. Or to be a partner, in that-- Girlfriend and boyfriend are- well, they're quite explicitly romantic, which means they love each other."
He can't help the chuckle of laughter that bursts out of him at Mandrake's offense.
"Well, let's try defining love, then. People see it as- as a commitment. To be loyal to the person you're dedicating it to, prioritise their attention and needs, to share in affection and companionship with them. The way a man loves his- his romantic partner is going to be very different to how a father loves his son, or two friends who love without romance, but those few tenets will remain the same."
Nathaniel frowns at that, shifting from mild (for him) judgement of other people's foibles to considering Arthur's words as they might apply in other circumstances.
"It's one perspective on love, certainly," he says. "Most people will have their own idea of what it means, as it's a very personal topic. Extremely subjective," he adds dryly. "Though most people will agree that you don't ever love two people in the exact same way - there'll always be something different about each person that you find yourself drawn to- or, rather, that you find appealing in them and enjoy being in the presence of."
"'Perspective' isn't the same thing as a definition." As ever, Nathaniel can say these things without the slightest touch of irony. "If everyone has a different idea of what it means, then it's just a - word people use." As it happens, that rather aligns with his perspective on 'love'.
"Most words are just-- words people use." Don't even start on linguistics with a poet, kid. "It's society agreeing on a standard definition that gives it widespread use, but individual meaning is important as well. And even then there are different kinds of love, as well. Familial, like- between a father and son, t-the way I feel for you. Romantic, in being someone's boyfriend, or husband." Ideally, at least. "Platonic, between two friends. Ancient Greek philosophy actually goes into the definitions quite thoroughly, those have carried quite well through the ages."
"I've read Greek philosophy." He feels that he doesn't really need to add 'the useful parts'. "There are times when you have to get through the philosophy to understand what they were saying about summoning demons." The almost complete lack of judgment in his tone is mostly because he's using the words as filler, of sorts, instead of as part of any argument. "They knew the importance of exact phrasing. There are some interesting papers comparing Latin, Greek and Coptic spells that were developed at the same time, especially as magicians of that time would've known all three languages." It might be part of how he's distracting himself from something he's not sure how to address, or if he should, but he does find it interesting, which comes through more than the absent-minded judgment.
"Maybe there's some use in broad categories. The words people chose to use and what those might suggest about how they think or what they'd do. But I still think that if the meaning is individual, it's too imprecise to use."
"So if a word is defined too broadly, it's useless," Arthur queries dryly. "But if it's too precisely defined, it's also useless. So really, you can only use your own definition, and hope that the people you're speaking to also share that."
"A precise definition is useful, if it was shared. If it's not, then it's useless. There's a reason tools have individuals names instead just saying something's a hammer because it looks like a hammer. Not knowing the difference between flageolet and falsetto is important, if you just said 'high pitched', it would be a quick way to die. If you're lucky."
"I know." There's a history there that he doesn't think needs to be gotten into, ever. "But there are people who use 'flageolet' as a shorthand for 'flageolet register'. Mr. Sindra told me about what happened to some of them." Overall, it had been much better than when he was trying to teach Nathaniel music.
There's an immediate and curious lift of Arthur's eyebrow, and it's reflected fully in his tone when he says, "I didn't know you were that familiar with music."
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"Not just his accomplishments, of course." He can be diplomatic about this. "His obstructions as well, the things set against him and how he reacted, appropriately and otherwise. To know a person's true character is to see how they react to these... setbacks, obstacles, as well as their triumphs."
His hand finally shifts on Nathaniel, sitting between his shoulders lightly. Easier to move away from more subtly, if Nathaniel wants to be rid of him, but still a positive presence.
"In the same way you've learned to see the depths of Gladstone's skills and character by seeing these highs and lows, I would love to see the same from yourself. Every step you take in private is one where I don't get to celebrate your triumphs with you, or- or be able to help you with any complications you encounter."
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After all, while the biographies of Gladstone had included challenges faced and then overcome through might of arms and the persuasive words of a man who everyone knew would properly rule the empire, he was well aware of the ultimate outcome. Gladstone is famous for his supreme energy and his implacable defiance when the chips were down. He had never given up his cause, even when things looked bad. He had never let anyone insult his honor, or that of his friends. He was powerful and prepared to challenge anyone who wronged him.
Yes, those traits are all admirable in and of themselves, but if Gladstone had failed and gotten lost to history, well, there's a reason he would have been forgotten.
On more personal grounds - he'd learned a long time ago that it's better to keep some things private, even from those who would be pleased simply to see his progress. Moreover, he and Arthur aren't always in agreement on what's important to work on.
Still. Here they are. And he doesn't want to be here forever.
"I'll try." There might not be a lot of conviction to his words, but that's a lot more honest than his tone would've been if he had no intention of trying.
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"And of course, if there's anything I can do to help- I-I suppose prove that I will keep my word-" because he knows Nathaniel's love for hard evidence, or at least repeatable circumstances. "-then please don't hesitate to ask. You have the entirety of my skills at your disposal if you need anything, whenever you like."
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He frowns at the second part, drumming his fingers against his leg. He does like hard evidence. He likes to have anything he could hold onto. And when it's something he doesn't understand, it's even more important. But it's difficult to imagine what could offer such momentous proof. Such events don't come along every day. Still, he'd said he'd try, and he'd meant it. He'll just have to see if there's anything that he can tell Arthur about. Even if just the idea of pulling out an unfinished project makes him twitch a little.
"I'll find something." Perhaps a little more confident than he feels, but sometimes the confidence comes first.
He pauses a moment. Well, if he's going to practice getting better talking about something in progress, he can start by asking a probably simple question instead of trying to look it up alone. "What does it mean to be someone's boyfriend?"
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Well, if he had a top ten list of questions he never would have expected from Nathaniel, he can certainly strike that one off.
"Uh- well." He sits up a bit more properly - he's not upset, but he's caught flat-footed and a bit frazzled from it. "That- it means that this man is in a romantic relationship with the person in question. I-it's a much more modern term, ah. It implies casual courtship, or at least a point in the relationship where engagement, o-or marriage aren't necessarily on the table just yet."
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"Well- some people like to make an announcement of the fact they have a partner. It's important to have a-a title for the fact they're committed. They wear it with the same pride you call yourself a magician - it means something important to them. Though in this case, it implies an- I guess an elevation of status, in being a relationship."
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"But being a magician means something about who you are. People can go from in a relationship to not?" He feels that's a logical assumption, as you can go from not being in a relationship to being in one. Apparently. "It's normal to go from being an apprentice to being a magician, but you can't go back. Besides, what sort of status is that? If you're going to get married, you should just do that."
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"Ah- yes, as a matter of fact. When you aren't in a relationship, it's known as- in my time, eligible, but the more modern parlance seems to use 'single'. And a lot of societies tell us that it's better to be in a relationship than not at all, so it's- common to enter into them, even if you don't feel like you're supposed to, on some level. So the status is, being in a relationship is something of an elevation in a- a social way, rather than a practical one, though the treatment of one can often be used as a prop for the other."
He looks back at Nathaniel now, and Nathaniel will get to see him looking almost completely at ease for once, shoulders lax and face relaxed, though still intensely curious. "I do have to ask - what prompted you to ask me all this? It's- well, I must admit it's not something I expected for you to ask."
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"Children have to come from somewhere." He knows they don't magically appear after people get married, but he feels that it's close enough. So he supposes that it might be made into a status symbol in order to enhance the appeal of that part.
"Magicians don't have children, so most of us don't get married. But it can be useful to have someone else around." There are apprentices, after all. "It's not bad to have company, either." He's not the most social person, but he does enjoy being around the people he does like.
"I heard someone talking about it. That sort of thing seems common here." He's pretty sure there are at least three 'couples'. A high percentage, but the close quarters allow people to learn if they like to spend time together.
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"Y-yes, um. Ideally, your partner - er, a boyfriend, girlfriend, wife or, or husband or what have you - they should be someone you like. Someone you'd consider a friend or a good companion even if you weren't in love with them. People often..."
He hums as he considers how to word it.
"Often when you have a shared experience with someone, it can help foster that- intensity of feeling, and start a positive relationship. John and I aren't romantic, for example, but the events we have been through together have helped us forge a- a strong companionship. A lot of people here find breaches and floods to be perpetrators of... similiar levels of emotions. And despite knowing these aren't happening to us, the fact we get to experience these lives for some time, to see things literally through their eyes, to feel their love and friendship - it can still leave us affected, and make us want to seek out that person's counterpart on the Barge to discuss these feelings."
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He's baffled all over again. They'd covered the reasons why people 'date'. He wouldn't say they're necessarily good ones, but that's true of many things. Now Arthur's adding a completely unexpected swerve to the whole business, as if it's nothing.
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"Love is- in fact, the primary reason someone would want a partner. Or to be a partner, in that-- Girlfriend and boyfriend are- well, they're quite explicitly romantic, which means they love each other."
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"Well, let's try defining love, then. People see it as- as a commitment. To be loyal to the person you're dedicating it to, prioritise their attention and needs, to share in affection and companionship with them. The way a man loves his- his romantic partner is going to be very different to how a father loves his son, or two friends who love without romance, but those few tenets will remain the same."
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"Is that what you really believe?"
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"Maybe there's some use in broad categories. The words people chose to use and what those might suggest about how they think or what they'd do. But I still think that if the meaning is individual, it's too imprecise to use."
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