He hums softly. "No, I do- I do understand that. There needs to be- other things, real things, in order for us to remember that we are human, a-and alive, and- and present, for our own existences."
His fingers drum on his jaw, thoughtful but fast-paced. "So you don't like the idea of... of powerlessness, though- we did already know this about you. You don't like the concept of- of being helpless."
"N-no, no, you're quite right." He does hear that defensive tone, and his own response is placating. "But some people... well, they take worse to being put in that position than others."
His expression softens a bit, empathy furrowing his brow just a little. "But I remember the memory we shared, of you being in front of Parliament. The idea that you wouldn't get to say your piece seemed to scare you more than any matter of bodily harm."
He hasn't retreated into full denial of everything he's said and also of the possibility that he could've said it in the first place, which is something.
He runs a hand through his hair, shifting slightly.
"There's a lot of bodily harm you can survive." He doesn't want to. He doesn't like being hurt, and there are a lot of permanent injuries that would be a real hassle. "Being able to speak offers a chance." The memory is proof of that, after all. He'd managed to win himself a little more time, and an extra few hours can be enough to change everything. That it's also a much more fundamental fear is somewhat redeemed by that. He pauses again. But Arthur had agreed about what it can mean to be real. "...If you speak, you can exist."
"If there is someone who will listen," he corrects softly, "You can exist."
Every time he thinks they've got to the crux of a particular issue, Nathaniel finds a way to reveal a deeper layer of how deeply fucked up his world is. But for this one, he remains calm.
"This is why you feel like you need power." His tone is firm, but it's with the careful weight of a theory, not a declaration. "Because if you can make someone listen, then you can exist. If you speak and they don't care, what does it matter, right? You might as well have not spoken at all. But if you can make yourself important enough to necessitate that people listen to you, then you will always be."
It's not something Nathaniel would say. It's not something Nathaniel would think. It's not something he can let himself think.
(Nathaniel doesn't believe there's anything wrong with enslaving spirits. Even if he did feel any unease about it - he's not sure that would stop him. It's why he summons Bartimaeus who's competent enough but not enough to truly justify the risk. Bartimaeus knows his name. He's incredibly irritating, constantly annoying and never stops insulting him or commenting on what he's doing - usually insultingly. Most spirits pretend to be obedient and unnoticeable. Any other djinn would be better, but even though they have to listen to him, Bartimaeus' refusal makes him feel alive.
But the way of the world - the way magicians shape the world - is right and proper so there's nothing to think about.)
Even if Arthur's words are just a suggestion, it's almost unbearable to listen to. Even if it was a reason, there are other ones. A single element of a much larger whole shouldn't matter. The theory shouldn't matter, because it wouldn't be important even if it was right.
"A magician is some who wields power. He exerts his will and effects change. That's why the only bad magician is an incompetent one. You can never lose control, or you'll lose everything. That's just what matters." It's been a while since he's retreated into quoting others, tone calm and steady.
"And we both know incompetent is the last thing you are." But he can hear the slip in tone, to the safety of quotes and neutral measures, and he pulls back himself, meeting it with a calm, resonant tone. "But from everything you've described to me about them, I'm rather inclined to think you're more competent in certain respects than the lords of Parliament are. That they forced you to assist them rather than try and deal with the problem themselves... you agree, surely, that negligence of duty is a gross level of incompetence? It's been your chief complaint about Underwood since we first started these discussions."
This is much more comfortable ground. Not that he was uncomfortable. But it's good to be helpful and explain the obvious facts, which he can do because he is very competent.
"Yes, of course. Incompetence is the only thing that can't be forgiven." There are other things he doesn't forgive, but they're basically about incompetence, if you look at them the right way, so the words are correct. "But the two situations can't be compared. Underwood failed to uphold his responsibility as my master. That he was also second rate at his job is a mark against him, but not being talented isn't a crime." He just thinks it's bad and fair game to add to other complaints.
"Delegation is a completely different situation. Knowing who is best suited for a task is an important part of their jobs. They can't be expect to micromanage everything, and it wouldn't be better if they did." If he's ever said anything that suggests he might have some complaints to make about Parliament. No he didn't.
He runs his hand over his mouth as his mind whirs. "Underwood not upholding his responsibilities is negligence of duty, as is his inability to perform his actual job properly. It's the same crime, just- different facets. Different pieces of the same elephant. And Parliament not being able to adequately delegate to you what you required to be able to complete your damn assignment, that's equally negligent and incompetent. They may not be required to micromanage, but they should have ensured you had everything you required without forcing you to rely on your own wits and abilities. Your competency being sufficient does not excuse their insufficiencies."
"Sometimes people are promoted beyond what they're capable of achieving. It's unfortunate, but not something that can be completely avoided when you're dealing with people. Such things eventually correct themselves." Underwood likely would've died anyway, eventually, Nathaniel's actions merely made that moment come faster.
"I did complete the job, so it wouldn't be reasonable for them to have offered more resources. Especially as there are plenty of people who need them. It's important to consider the bigger picture. People in such exalted positions have no choice but to contemplate the larger tapestry. We're very lucky that they can bear that burden."
"You didn't know at the time that you would complete it - it wouldn't have been unreasonable for them to assist you, and the fact they didn't, even though you succeeded, is absolutely gross incompetence." He huffs sourly. "From the way you've described them to me - and the memory we shared, which I am not disregarding - members of Parliament are obsessed with two things, total. Their own lives, and preventative measures towards protecting themselves - and the spread on their fucking lunch table."
He doesn't mean to swear but the gross ridiculousness of the fucking existence of that infuriates him to no end. "These do not strike me as men or women who are concerned with the wellbeing of those beneath them, let alone any larger tapestry. You cannot focus on the well-being of those around you when you are singularly devoted to your own survival."
Certain things would be a lot easier if Arthur would disregard certain details, especially those he learned without context and which often aren't particularly helpful to the broader point.
"Yes I did." He's not going to doubt his own skills, and any fleeting thoughts he might have had about the chance of dying are simply a matter of human error. Much like being 'scared', what matters is control. After enough practice, you can probably achieve perfect control without thought, but Nathaniel has admitted that there's still life experience that requires more time to fully master.
The other point is - slightly harder.
"Prioritizing your own safety is reasonable, especially when you have larger concerns." It's not that he speaks without conviction, but it's far from the strongest defense he's tried to make.
"When you have larger concerns, your priority should be making sure they're able to be cared for properly," he counters softly. "And sometimes that involves some personal discomfort or risk, to ensure its adequate resolution."
He takes a breath, and sighs it out quietly as he stands. "But- certainly, master Mandrake. I've taken up more than enough of your time."
Nathaniel doesn't literally flee, this time, but he does retreat deep into the stacks so he can organizing things without having to worry about coming across anyone.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2023-07-07 04:05 am (UTC)His fingers drum on his jaw, thoughtful but fast-paced. "So you don't like the idea of... of powerlessness, though- we did already know this about you. You don't like the concept of- of being helpless."
no subject
Date: 2023-07-07 04:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-07-07 04:22 am (UTC)His expression softens a bit, empathy furrowing his brow just a little. "But I remember the memory we shared, of you being in front of Parliament. The idea that you wouldn't get to say your piece seemed to scare you more than any matter of bodily harm."
no subject
Date: 2023-07-07 04:41 am (UTC)He runs a hand through his hair, shifting slightly.
"There's a lot of bodily harm you can survive." He doesn't want to. He doesn't like being hurt, and there are a lot of permanent injuries that would be a real hassle. "Being able to speak offers a chance." The memory is proof of that, after all. He'd managed to win himself a little more time, and an extra few hours can be enough to change everything. That it's also a much more fundamental fear is somewhat redeemed by that. He pauses again. But Arthur had agreed about what it can mean to be real. "...If you speak, you can exist."
no subject
Date: 2023-07-07 05:05 am (UTC)Every time he thinks they've got to the crux of a particular issue, Nathaniel finds a way to reveal a deeper layer of how deeply fucked up his world is. But for this one, he remains calm.
"This is why you feel like you need power." His tone is firm, but it's with the careful weight of a theory, not a declaration. "Because if you can make someone listen, then you can exist. If you speak and they don't care, what does it matter, right? You might as well have not spoken at all. But if you can make yourself important enough to necessitate that people listen to you, then you will always be."
no subject
Date: 2023-07-07 05:31 am (UTC)(Nathaniel doesn't believe there's anything wrong with enslaving spirits. Even if he did feel any unease about it - he's not sure that would stop him. It's why he summons Bartimaeus who's competent enough but not enough to truly justify the risk. Bartimaeus knows his name. He's incredibly irritating, constantly annoying and never stops insulting him or commenting on what he's doing - usually insultingly. Most spirits pretend to be obedient and unnoticeable. Any other djinn would be better, but even though they have to listen to him, Bartimaeus' refusal makes him feel alive.
But the way of the world - the way magicians shape the world - is right and proper so there's nothing to think about.)
Even if Arthur's words are just a suggestion, it's almost unbearable to listen to. Even if it was a reason, there are other ones. A single element of a much larger whole shouldn't matter. The theory shouldn't matter, because it wouldn't be important even if it was right.
"A magician is some who wields power. He exerts his will and effects change. That's why the only bad magician is an incompetent one. You can never lose control, or you'll lose everything. That's just what matters." It's been a while since he's retreated into quoting others, tone calm and steady.
no subject
Date: 2023-07-07 05:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-07-07 06:13 am (UTC)"Yes, of course. Incompetence is the only thing that can't be forgiven." There are other things he doesn't forgive, but they're basically about incompetence, if you look at them the right way, so the words are correct. "But the two situations can't be compared. Underwood failed to uphold his responsibility as my master. That he was also second rate at his job is a mark against him, but not being talented isn't a crime." He just thinks it's bad and fair game to add to other complaints.
"Delegation is a completely different situation. Knowing who is best suited for a task is an important part of their jobs. They can't be expect to micromanage everything, and it wouldn't be better if they did." If he's ever said anything that suggests he might have some complaints to make about Parliament. No he didn't.
no subject
Date: 2023-07-07 06:27 am (UTC)He runs his hand over his mouth as his mind whirs. "Underwood not upholding his responsibilities is negligence of duty, as is his inability to perform his actual job properly. It's the same crime, just- different facets. Different pieces of the same elephant. And Parliament not being able to adequately delegate to you what you required to be able to complete your damn assignment, that's equally negligent and incompetent. They may not be required to micromanage, but they should have ensured you had everything you required without forcing you to rely on your own wits and abilities. Your competency being sufficient does not excuse their insufficiencies."
no subject
Date: 2023-07-07 06:38 am (UTC)"I did complete the job, so it wouldn't be reasonable for them to have offered more resources. Especially as there are plenty of people who need them. It's important to consider the bigger picture. People in such exalted positions have no choice but to contemplate the larger tapestry. We're very lucky that they can bear that burden."
no subject
Date: 2023-07-07 07:00 am (UTC)"You didn't know at the time that you would complete it - it wouldn't have been unreasonable for them to assist you, and the fact they didn't, even though you succeeded, is absolutely gross incompetence." He huffs sourly. "From the way you've described them to me - and the memory we shared, which I am not disregarding - members of Parliament are obsessed with two things, total. Their own lives, and preventative measures towards protecting themselves - and the spread on their fucking lunch table."
He doesn't mean to swear but the gross ridiculousness of the fucking existence of that infuriates him to no end. "These do not strike me as men or women who are concerned with the wellbeing of those beneath them, let alone any larger tapestry. You cannot focus on the well-being of those around you when you are singularly devoted to your own survival."
no subject
Date: 2023-07-07 04:20 pm (UTC)"Yes I did." He's not going to doubt his own skills, and any fleeting thoughts he might have had about the chance of dying are simply a matter of human error. Much like being 'scared', what matters is control. After enough practice, you can probably achieve perfect control without thought, but Nathaniel has admitted that there's still life experience that requires more time to fully master.
The other point is - slightly harder.
"Prioritizing your own safety is reasonable, especially when you have larger concerns." It's not that he speaks without conviction, but it's far from the strongest defense he's tried to make.
He glances at his watch. "I have to go to work."
no subject
Date: 2023-07-08 01:59 am (UTC)He takes a breath, and sighs it out quietly as he stands. "But- certainly, master Mandrake. I've taken up more than enough of your time."
no subject
Date: 2023-07-08 02:04 am (UTC)Nathaniel doesn't literally flee, this time, but he does retreat deep into the stacks so he can organizing things without having to worry about coming across anyone.