"I don't think Lovelace had had an apprentice, yet." In his memory, Lovelace had been ancient. In more recent memories, he suspects he'd just been in his thirties. Likely early thirties at that. Not that that's the main point, but it's not fully disconnected either. "Besides, that 'reversal' would only be true if we started out on the same level. If we were standing in a hallway and he shoved me over - I'd still be more justified in pushing him over in turn. But it would be different. He wasn't ten. Or twelve."
"He was a grown adult who should have known better, I agree," he says, to stymie any sort of arguments that might stem from that particular thought. "But seeking out revenge for that locks you onto a strict path in life, where... where every single encounter becomes a complicated game of chess for your very life - where you are on constant alert for threats, to the point that you become incapable of not seeing the potential harm someone can offer you, you are no longer able to believe anyone of having positive ulterior motives like compassion."
He looks down at Nathaniel. "It is possible to have a life where you don't need to be constantly on guard as a first instinct. To be in a situation where that is only a possibility, under specific circumstances, not a- a-a given fact of life."
"It might be possible." They're on a ship with people who come from all sorts of universes. It would be foolish to remain unaware that there are different types of lives. In a universe where anything can happen, even the possibility that Arthur suggests is... possible.
"But my path in life was never going to be that. Perhaps if things had been - different it would've taken longer to be aware of the way things were, but that doesn't mean they would've been any different."
"And why should you stay on that path anymore?" he posits. "You get to dictate your own path in life from hereon, Nathaniel. What reasons are there to continue on these paths of- of revenge, the vicious cycle of constant one-upmanship and evenness, if we can instead work on ways to make your worth feel appreciated? If we can instead get you to a place where your worth is not dictated by people that hate you and want to see you cut down to size to suit their agendas?"
"But it is what it was." The point feels important. He couldn't say why, and he feels no inclination to try to find the words. But it just is important. He folds his arms. "I'm the only one who dictates my own worth. Maybe some people don't care about making things even - to respond to other people's actions. But I care, and I haven't seen any good argument why I shouldn't."
"I'm not arguing that you shouldn't care," he counters immediately. "I fully support it, in fact, knowing your own worth is a- a vital skill to keep yourself from being manipulated by others. But the fact of the matter is, you still feel that you have to prove your worth-- because as soon as someone threatens your ego, you fall for the need to assert to others that your worth exists, that your worth has meaning to them, and that is where people keep trapping you."
"As you've still failed to offer a single suggestion about how to respond when someone kills me," at any time during their pairing, "So I've only been able to assume that you believe that the best response is to do nothing. That there's no need to assert that that matters. I disagree with you."
"I..." That comment gets a deep sigh, as he tries to think about how to word it best.
"I believe that you matter, Nathaniel. That has never been in question in my mind, and... it is a failing on my part, if I have lead you to believe that isn't the case. It is because you matter that I have chosen to handle your deaths the way that I have - I believed at each time that it would be more beneficial for you, to have a steadfast, positive presence at your side, showing you in action- in taking care of you that your worth was valued. I believed, a-and to some extent still do, that... supporting you, helping you recover to the best of my ability, was more... more important, than seeking out revenge on the people that caused it in the first place."
"Most of them are still here. So does it only matter in the first few days and after that it would be impossible to do anything?" He wouldn't actually ask Arthur to seek out revenge. He isn't asking. But he hasn't seen anything happen to people who've hurt him except by his own actions.
"There is a saying, which- well, frankly I don't think you'll think much of it," he admits wryly, "that goes, 'the best revenge is a life well lived'. It basically means... when you succeed in life, despite other people's attempts to harm you or, or 'put you in your place' according to their horrible metrics... that's a more satisfying sort of retribution. In that no matter how hard these people tried to bring you down to their level, you not only rose to the challenges but managed to thrive despite them. That them being impotent to stop you being the best will hurt them more than acting against them directly."
"I don't think much of it." Which is more polite than saying he thinks it's incredibly stupid. "My life 'well lived' won't hurt them in the slightest. They don't care. They didn't care about hurting me. They won't care if I'm happy or sad or anything else. The only thing they'll care about is if they're inconvenienced." He scoffs. "That 'saying' is just another way of saying that I should forget. I don't forget. If the option is that or taking my revenge, I'm not going to chose 'a life well lived'." Flat, and completely honest. It would be easy enough to pretend otherwise, but even though Arthur can say stupid thing, he respects him enough to draw this line in the sand out in the open. It's not a satisfying retribution. It's not something he'll accept.
"If they don't care, then what worth is there in impressing them when getting their attention can only be a negative thing? You've inconvenienced them, and they want you out of their lives again as soon as possible. And it's certainly not asking you to forget - simply suggesting that there are better things, more logical choices, than to focus on than spending every waking moment fixating on ways to fuck someone over."
"I have no interest in impressing them." Not that he minds if that's a side effect, but that's true about anyone. "If I wanted their positive attention, why would I chose revenge?" He can't imagine anything more pathetic than responding to such treatment by wanting anything other than a negative response. "Besides, once I've achieved what I wanted, then there's no need to spend any time thinking about those people again. It also seems a rather strange position for you to take. You seem to think that when I've hurt someone, I should be inconvenienced. But I suppose that's a philosophy that only applies to me." He's never asked Arthur to stab Xue Yang with a knife so he might experience some of the pain that Nathaniel has. Yet Arthur didn't even go as far as to think that Nathaniel deserved to speak to him, even as he had been forced into a conversation.
He's used to people deciding that it's only the people within their power who have to face any 'consequences'. He doesn't have to accept that any more than he has to accept not acting.
"I spoke with Cho about my reasons. I also moved from working in the library to the dining hall." He considers both consequences of his choices. He's never complained about either, and isn't complaining now. It would be unfair to use a harsher word than inconvenience because he doesn't think that it was an unfair punishment. But he thinks it pretty clear example that Arthur expects some people not to have to ignore things.
"That is... it-it is true, that is an objective fact of the matter."
Which is definitely avoiding the point, for a moment, but he just needs a moment to rally.
"Cho is someone I considered a good friend, Nathaniel. The fact that you were a cause of direct harm to him was greatly distressing to me, not just as your warden - but for the fact that someone I care about was grievously injured. By someone I have been attempting to teach the impact of his actions."
And then, to make sure he clarifies it fully, explaining the things he thinks are obvious: "The reason I was furious with you when I was- in your words, inconveniencing you - I was in great emotional distress because I was still dealing with the fallout of my friend being harmed. Of his partner, Jedao, who was also in great distress, seeing himself as having failed Cho and himself for trusting you. I was..." And he sighs, short and sharp, but his hand stays even and warm on Nathaniel. "I was furious at myself, for not being able to predict that you would hurt Cho. And I was... I was hoping, in some respect, that the removal of your place in a position you did like would be seen as punishment for inflicting such harm not only on your target, but on the people who care about him."
"As you say, it's an objective fact of the matter."
It's an objective fact that when Arthur is upset by someone he doesn't have to simply 'live well' but can act on his emotions. He can act on emotional distress. He can be angry at himself for not noticing something and hold that anger against someone. He try to make someone feel something for about what they've done by taking away something they like.
He can take action when it's someone he thinks is worth that choice.
With the full explanation laid out, it seems clear that Arthur does respond exactly as Nathaniel has. Perhaps in different ways and different degrees, but he's the one who has the power to do so. Nathaniel would've faced Lovelace directly if he could've, but he couldn't. If Nathaniel had power, he wouldn't have to respond as forcefully as he does, because he wouldn't need to make up for not being on their level.
Arthur's hand curls into a tight fist, when Nathaniel pulls away, but it looses immediately as he keeps his frustrations inside instead.
"Nathaniel, you almost killed Cho. My punishment to you was an inconvenience, yes, because the concept was to take away something you cared about to a lesser extent than the way you did to Cho by making an attempt on his life and removing from him something that gave him security. You destroyed his faith in you, completely and utterly, and left him and others devastated in the wake of your actions. Attempted murder and theft of magical, personally important objects are far greater crimes than removing you from the library staff."
"Then would you agree that different crimes deserve different punishments? That one punishment cannot be equally applied to crimes of distinctly separate severity?"
"I would agree that different crimes deserve different responses."
As a corollary, he believes that the same crime deserves at least a similar response. Arthur clearly doesn't, but it's not as if he hasn't been well aware of that for a long time.
Arthur gets to his feet, lifting a hand to rub his face, his back to Nathaniel.
"When someone has successfully harmed you, o-or attempted to despite success, you seek equality. To harm them in the same way." He tilts his head up, but his shoulders sink a fraction. "By your own logic on the matter, I should have allowed Cho to beat you near to death and steal your possessions as well."
He turns then, and he tries to look stern, but it just comes out as disappointed. "Or I could have allowed Jedao to do it, in Cho's place. Instead, I gave you the far lesser punishment, one that is in no way proportionate to the crime you committed against someone else. Do you understand why?"
"I've never tried to harm them in the same way. That would only be equality if we started in the same place." He thinks it's pretty obvious that, in each of the acts of revenge that Arthur's aware of, he has never responded in the exact same way. After all, part of the point is that he can't.
He doesn't shrug, as Arthur couldn't hear it.
"It's impossible to avoid how people do go on in posts to the network." Especially when you obsessively track the network. "I don't know if allowing that would be enough for demotion, but people would certainly talk about it for an unreasonable length of time." His tone remains bland. He's well aware that's not why, but Arthur has decided to turn to surface level differences, Nathaniel doesn't see that he has to chose to go deeper. This is one area where he can chose to respond in equal measure.
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timeasmymeasure
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Date: 2023-10-04 05:32 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-10-04 05:44 am (UTC)He looks down at Nathaniel. "It is possible to have a life where you don't need to be constantly on guard as a first instinct. To be in a situation where that is only a possibility, under specific circumstances, not a- a-a given fact of life."
no subject
Date: 2023-10-04 05:50 am (UTC)"But my path in life was never going to be that. Perhaps if things had been - different it would've taken longer to be aware of the way things were, but that doesn't mean they would've been any different."
no subject
Date: 2023-10-04 06:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-10-04 06:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-10-05 12:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-10-05 12:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-10-05 02:33 am (UTC)"I believe that you matter, Nathaniel. That has never been in question in my mind, and... it is a failing on my part, if I have lead you to believe that isn't the case. It is because you matter that I have chosen to handle your deaths the way that I have - I believed at each time that it would be more beneficial for you, to have a steadfast, positive presence at your side, showing you in action- in taking care of you that your worth was valued. I believed, a-and to some extent still do, that... supporting you, helping you recover to the best of my ability, was more... more important, than seeking out revenge on the people that caused it in the first place."
no subject
Date: 2023-10-05 02:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-10-05 03:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-10-05 03:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-10-05 04:06 am (UTC)"If they don't care, then what worth is there in impressing them when getting their attention can only be a negative thing? You've inconvenienced them, and they want you out of their lives again as soon as possible. And it's certainly not asking you to forget - simply suggesting that there are better things, more logical choices, than to focus on than spending every waking moment fixating on ways to fuck someone over."
no subject
Date: 2023-10-05 04:16 am (UTC)He's used to people deciding that it's only the people within their power who have to face any 'consequences'. He doesn't have to accept that any more than he has to accept not acting.
no subject
Date: 2023-10-05 04:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-10-05 04:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-10-05 04:57 am (UTC)"...what do you imagine my reasoning is for such choices?"
no subject
Date: 2023-10-05 04:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-10-05 05:22 am (UTC)Which is definitely avoiding the point, for a moment, but he just needs a moment to rally.
"Cho is someone I considered a good friend, Nathaniel. The fact that you were a cause of direct harm to him was greatly distressing to me, not just as your warden - but for the fact that someone I care about was grievously injured. By someone I have been attempting to teach the impact of his actions."
And then, to make sure he clarifies it fully, explaining the things he thinks are obvious: "The reason I was furious with you when I was- in your words, inconveniencing you - I was in great emotional distress because I was still dealing with the fallout of my friend being harmed. Of his partner, Jedao, who was also in great distress, seeing himself as having failed Cho and himself for trusting you. I was..." And he sighs, short and sharp, but his hand stays even and warm on Nathaniel. "I was furious at myself, for not being able to predict that you would hurt Cho. And I was... I was hoping, in some respect, that the removal of your place in a position you did like would be seen as punishment for inflicting such harm not only on your target, but on the people who care about him."
no subject
Date: 2023-10-05 05:34 am (UTC)"As you say, it's an objective fact of the matter."
It's an objective fact that when Arthur is upset by someone he doesn't have to simply 'live well' but can act on his emotions. He can act on emotional distress. He can be angry at himself for not noticing something and hold that anger against someone. He try to make someone feel something for about what they've done by taking away something they like.
He can take action when it's someone he thinks is worth that choice.
With the full explanation laid out, it seems clear that Arthur does respond exactly as Nathaniel has. Perhaps in different ways and different degrees, but he's the one who has the power to do so. Nathaniel would've faced Lovelace directly if he could've, but he couldn't. If Nathaniel had power, he wouldn't have to respond as forcefully as he does, because he wouldn't need to make up for not being on their level.
no subject
Date: 2023-10-05 05:52 am (UTC)"Nathaniel, you almost killed Cho. My punishment to you was an inconvenience, yes, because the concept was to take away something you cared about to a lesser extent than the way you did to Cho by making an attempt on his life and removing from him something that gave him security. You destroyed his faith in you, completely and utterly, and left him and others devastated in the wake of your actions. Attempted murder and theft of magical, personally important objects are far greater crimes than removing you from the library staff."
no subject
Date: 2023-10-05 06:03 am (UTC)He has no argument with that objective fact.
no subject
Date: 2023-10-05 06:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-10-05 06:20 am (UTC)As a corollary, he believes that the same crime deserves at least a similar response. Arthur clearly doesn't, but it's not as if he hasn't been well aware of that for a long time.
no subject
Date: 2023-10-05 06:31 am (UTC)"When someone has successfully harmed you, o-or attempted to despite success, you seek equality. To harm them in the same way." He tilts his head up, but his shoulders sink a fraction. "By your own logic on the matter, I should have allowed Cho to beat you near to death and steal your possessions as well."
He turns then, and he tries to look stern, but it just comes out as disappointed. "Or I could have allowed Jedao to do it, in Cho's place. Instead, I gave you the far lesser punishment, one that is in no way proportionate to the crime you committed against someone else. Do you understand why?"
no subject
Date: 2023-10-05 06:40 am (UTC)He doesn't shrug, as Arthur couldn't hear it.
"It's impossible to avoid how people do go on in posts to the network." Especially when you obsessively track the network. "I don't know if allowing that would be enough for demotion, but people would certainly talk about it for an unreasonable length of time." His tone remains bland. He's well aware that's not why, but Arthur has decided to turn to surface level differences, Nathaniel doesn't see that he has to chose to go deeper. This is one area where he can chose to respond in equal measure.
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