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[mandrakeroot]

Mandrake here.

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[mandrakeroot]

Depending on the person, and situation, Nathaniel does believe it's reasonable to listen to an argument without immediately dismissing it. So he considers Arthur's words seriously, before dismissing it. "I've listened to people talk about their worlds. Seeing as, by the nature of this place, it's not exactly a random selection, I've also done my best to read about other worlds. Of course, that only goes so far, but I've yet to run across any sort of power that doesn't contain the possibility that people will abuse it." He considers the system he interacts with on his world to be a lot fairer, as well as better, than most others, but he doesn't have to be impolite.

[lestercraft]

"Please make no mistake, I'm not saying that people won't abuse power, if the right personality is given the right opportunity." He's not going to pretend otherwise, people are horrible. "But there are certainly systems which can enable a much more efficient abuse of power. And I must say, a system that encourages imprisonment and 'might makes right' will certainly produce a series of persons in which power is the only language they understand, and any threats to that are a personal, not professional affront."

[mandrakeroot]

Nathaniel does his best to focus on the future, while also keeping an eye on the future, but he can't quite help a pang of homesickness at Arthur's words. He can remember standing in front of the senior magicians with the shadow of the Well of Remorse hanging over him as if it was yesterday.

But that might does make right isn't something he'd try to argue, even if Arthur wasn't in a position of power over him. You don't get ahead by trying to pull someone up with you.

"It does seem to be a lot about what's rewarded."

[lestercraft]

"Cruelty is rewarded, Mister Mandrake," he says bluntly. "With no consideration for the collateral that these cruelties inflict. Your system condones kidnapping and slavery of creatures you have minimal understanding of, cruelty to children - not to mention the obvious sense of superiority to the non-magical masses your parliament is supposed to be protecting."

[mandrakeroot]

Cruelty is rewarded if you're strong, the weak fall. It all works out quite well, and is best for all those that are by protected by those strong enough to be in charge. Arthur clearly doesn't think so, which is useful to know. "It is unfortunate that people are hurt by it." Arthur is in charge, if just in a temporary sense, he's not the worst person Nathaniel has had to agree with.

[lestercraft]

Arthur's frown shifts, no longer annoyed but baffled, and he pointedly turns his head to face Nathaniel better, even if his eyes are still flicking down more towards Nathaniel's mouth.

"...I imagine you don't take umbrage with the fact that the people who aren't in power - who aren't members of the Parliament, non-magicians. Their loss and pain is acceptable as compared to the good you feel is done by Parliament in doing so."

[mandrakeroot]

"I don't know why you think non-magicians are suffering - suffering more than people always suffer, but if that was true it would be bad."

[lestercraft]

"Can you tell me that you genuinely believe that an individual magician wouldn't use his powers to threaten or undermine a non-magician, if they were in the way of something the magician wanted?"

[mandrakeroot]

Nathaniel folds his hands, expression and posture the old mix of obedient without falling into overly deferential. It doesn't matter that Arthur can't see it, it's more muscle memory than anything. "I wouldn't say that. But I would say that I think your - opinion on the matter is shaped by your experience with magicians in your world, and that you're projecting that onto what I've said about my world."

[lestercraft]

"Thankfully I've not had the luxury of meeting an actual magician in my world," he says dryly, conveniently leaving out the entire fucking cult that nearly got him consumed by an eldritch horror. "So my 'projecting', as you call it, is nothing more than my experience of men who hold power, their misuse of it, and the lack of care towards the people they're supposed to be protecting with said power."

He rests his elbow on the table and leans gently into it, a habitual motion more than one he would see the effect of. "And I can say with unbiased confidence that a government that would be so ready to abuse its citizens with that power is worth nothing less than complete contempt, because they cannot even abide by the basic tenets of which their positions are designed to uphold."

[mandrakeroot]

"Yes, but I thought it might be impolite to say that it seems personal for other reasons." In several real senses, he didn't legally exist as a child, only coming into an existence that matters when he received his name. He feels that this offers a helpful guide into how to think about those years, and to avoid anyone asking questions about anything that happened then.

"For example, it's deeply unlikely that a government magician would go after a non-magician. Maybe it's a matter of that feeling of superiority you mentioned. It would be rather pathetic to go after someone who will never be able to defend themselves the same way, even if there weren't laws."

[lestercraft]

"Unlikely, not impossible. Certainly not something worth causing bodily harm over. But their very presence, knowing that they could if they so chose, especially in a position where-- well, I can't imagine it would be very difficult for a powerful enough magician to be able to clean up after themselves so that no-one is the wiser for it," he comments, raising one eyebrow. "Social power is a formidable one in and of itself, Mister Mandrake. If the institution didn't exist, that power wouldn't either. At which point it's just a rich thug with minions unable to be defended against by the common folk."

[mandrakeroot]

"That's why I said unlikely." It's important to be precise. "It's also why I wouldn't make any claims about an individual magician and what they might do. Though that's one of the advantages of social power, reputation becomes all the more important. If I lived in a world without magicians, I might agree that the potential cost to non-magicians if they are targeted by magicians would far outweigh any good. But as it is, I believe that the overall protection against demons and other means of attack is rather important. Speaking as someone who wouldn't like to live in a war zone. Other people might feel differently."

[lestercraft]

Arthur visibly pauses.

"Right, I skipped that step a little, didn't I?" He lifts his head to gesture at Nathaniel. "Please, explain to me what benefit magicians actually offer England in your world."

[mandrakeroot]

"Stopping us from being attacked and than incorporated into someone else's empire," said promptly, and honestly.

He feels that magicians offer the benefits of having a strong government, but some people can't be trusted to care or understand the importance of such.

[lestercraft]

"Through the use of demons," he adds.

[mandrakeroot]

"Yes. It would be rather hard to defend against demons, if we didn't. Which brings us back to what magicians do for England, and what happens to countries that don't have such protection."

That is, they are no longer countries.

[lestercraft]

"No, actually - first of all, I'd like to understand better why your magic system has decided that the use of demons is what your entire national defence revolves around."

He hates that sentence, actually.

[mandrakeroot]

"Not our entire national defense, that would be stupid. But I'm not sure what you're asking." He really hates having to say that.

[lestercraft]

Arthur's expression remains deliberately neutral. "As a magician, surely you must be able to tell me why humanity first started making pacts with demons to use them like this."

[mandrakeroot]

"You think we make pacts with demons." It's a horrifying enough way to put it that he needs a moment before he can answer the question. "Magicians have been summoning demons since the dawn of history. So I really can't tell you why they started. Why everyone has continued to do so being more obvious."

[lestercraft]

"So magicians have been enslaving demons since the dawn of history," he corrects pointedly. "What do you use them for, more specifically?"

[mandrakeroot]

"Exactly." It's very important to get that straight. "They're set to all sorts of tasks: agriculture, building work is popular, transportation, observation, personal protection, protection of the country - the list goes on."

[lestercraft]

"And demons are sentient?"

[mandrakeroot]

"To a certain degree. They're certainly sentient enough to be malicious. Though I believe the ability to think comes only when they're summoned. It's hard to know for sure, as they're the only source for information the Other Place."