"Right, yes. Despite the legitimacy of certain claims, emotional biases such as hatred or- or a lack of willingness to understand can cause people to reject the truth regardless of how it's delivered. And-" he lifts his fist, managing to uncurl it to gesture at Nathaniel. "-your youth is certainly a rather decisive factor in why people may not believe certain claims from you, no matter what evidence you have to prove their legitimacy."
"I know." He doesn't think it necessarily plays a part in why people who have put him in various positions not believing him, but it's very easy for them to use. That he's too young to listen to. That he's too young for what he's done to matter. Mockery and resentment - it doesn't matter, it's just proof of their weakness. Youth is a temporary state. Either you grow up or you die. "They hate it more."
"Adults frequently believe their own experience is the be-all, end-all of information that is worth knowing," he comments wryly. "Which I have, in fact, experienced from your point of view, in my own teenage years, as well as my adulthood. To be proven wrong by a child is considered to be a deeply humiliating experience - which is bullshit, frankly. If there is enlightening news to be had on a topic, an intelligent person would be welcoming of it regardless of its source."
He shrugs a shoulder lightly. "Unfortunately the nature of both our worlds is that someone who is not in a position of power is required to work twice as hard, provide twice as much proof, hold evidence of twice as much legitimacy to be considered half as informed or useful. I know you understand this fully well, but I hope you also understand that I don't ask this of you." Or at least he tries very hard not to, because he wants Nathaniel to understand that Arthur does believe him. "And I'm afraid that wouldn't change were you to come home with me, but at least you would consistently have someone on your side to help push your gathered evidences as legitimate."
"It's not that. It's not just that. It can be frustrating when people pretend that they're not expecting it, but I don't mind working hard or getting as much evidence as I can." Arthur might not agree with his conclusions, but it can't be denied that Nathaniel does work very hard at everything he does. It's the baseline of his existence. He can imagine himself in a position of power, but he can't imagine working less. He wants to live. He wants to succeed. He wants to maybe occasionally feel slightly safe than his baseline. None of those can be achieved if you slack off and don't do twice as much work as people might expect - even if that's four times as much because of his age.
"Ignoring information because someone is younger is stupid. But it can be safer, too. You just have to know how not to embarrass them." He doesn't like having to do that, but there's a lot of stuff he doesn't like that he knows he has to do. "I hate when they know I would be useful. People wouldn't send demons to try to hurt me if they didn't think I knew something. Whitwell might have got me into the department, but she would've killed me herself if I had embarrassed her by not being able to do the work." Which is different from leaving him to die because she was angry at him for going behind her back.
"People want to see me fail because they know I could succeed, and then they pull my age into it as if they hadn't spent the past year letting me do their thinking for them." Nathaniel would never let himself slide down his chair in front of Arthur, no matter that he couldn't see it, but he does tug at his hair in frustration. "If you're not useful you're discard and if you're too useful people will try to kill you. But I wish they wouldn't bring my age into it." He assumes everyone understand that line, but it makes being talked down to by people who want to hurt him because they know full well he could be useful is frustrating.
"It's amazing the lengths people will go to, to convince themselves that you're both a harmless upstart of a waif, and a genuine enough threat to warrant assassins," he comments in amiable agreement. "You've proven time and time again that you're ferociously intelligent and extremely good at laying out plans."
He gives a soft sigh, as he leans back a little in his chair. "So the problem is less about experience and capability, because we can see plainly that you are considered to be a threat, and more of maturity. Now-" he lifts a hand to forestall any indignation that may spawn from the comment. "I'm in no way saying that you go out of your way to act immaturely. But there is a certain kind of knowledge that can only be achieved through age, and it's simply a matter of the actual length of time lived. Despite your prodigious experiences, the ways in which you are quite adept at manipulating the adults around you to fall in line with your ideas--" with a raised eyebrow, a soft reminder that Arthur isn't going to fall for it. "--there is a level of maturity that is simply not possible for you to have when you're some forty or fifty years younger than your peers. You are still a teenager, and- physically, you aren't as- as developed, in the literal, physical sense, as an adult. And that lack thereof, of- maturity-- worldliness, I suppose, the breadth of experience - that is what is being marked against you."
Nathaniel is extremely mature, and so can take any suggestion of any immaturity with great grace and maturity and a maybe putting that comment aside for the times he - maturely - contemplates the ways people have wronged him.
"I know that there are some parts that are simply a matter of time." He'd been able to wait two years to carry out his revenge, because he hadn't been strong enough. He hadn't known enough. "Manipulating people requires knowing what people want, or what they want to see. It's obvious, sometimes, but not always." For example, the more incomprehensible someone is, the harder it is to figure out what they want. Especially in a closed environment. "With more experience, you have more chances. If you work at it. There are plenty of people who have the advantage of age but don't make an effort." It's still unbalanced, but he doesn't think he'll need to match their age to get that to even out. Of course, that can't be said for anyone who's made it to minister, whatever their other flaws, know what it takes to hold onto power.
"Limited experience is something that can be fixed."
"And I'm sure every politician out there is aware that you want, desperately to prove yourself." He won't pretend that's not an obvious fact about Nathaniel. "Which gives all of them ample opportunities to manipulate you."
He rests his chin on his hand, elbow propped on the table. "Have you ever noticed that you will often double down on your efforts when someone you respect challenges your experience, your capability? That you throw yourself into proving them wrong? Has it occurred to you that they're requesting it in such a way, undermining your lived experience, so as to get you to do their dirty work for yourself? Not a one of those bastards in Parliament would bother going to Prague themselves, but if they can send someone expendable to do the dirty work for them, they don't have to waste the time thinking about it at all."
"Everyone wants that. Everyone with something to prove," he adds, because he does know that his experiences aren't universal. There are probably also people who don't even try, possible because they know that they'll only fail, but he doesn't know what goes on in such people's heads.
"That's not manipulation. It's not making someone do something, without them knowing that you're the one doing that." In case they have a different definition of 'manipulation'. "Whitwell sent me to Prague because if I succeeded in finding something it would boos her reputation, and if I didn't then the blame could be put on me." She hadn't tried to hide that. I have to prove people wrong, whether I respect them or not, because it's my job. It's the only way to get ahead. Ministers wouldn't go themselves, because they don't have to. They've already proved that they're strong enough." He doesn't think 'do this or die' counts as manipulation. He just doesn't think it's wrong. "I'm not stupid. I had to get results, because failing is dangerous."
"Manipulation is not necessarily subtle," he points out. "Someone forcing you to do something because the other option is death is still manipulation. Just because they happen to be making you do something you might have done anyway-- the fact that they've added consequences to your actions means that they're now forcing your hand."
"There are always consequences to any action. Or inaction. There's a chance that some of them could be good, and you just have to figure out the best way to avoid things being too bad." He doesn't feel bad about the various lies he's told or laws he's broken or the manipulation, because it's simply sensible to do everything you can to not be found out.
He had confessed to Lovelace because it had been the right thing to do. He'd been younger, back then. Besides, it wasn't as if it had worked. Careful lies are much more successful.
"But these are adults, who are fully capable of performing these tasks themselves, forcing you to do it. Because, as you said, failing is dangerous. They know that and deliberately set you up to be their- their fucking patsy."
He does try not to swear in front of Nathaniel but he's fucking annoyed about magicians all over again, and he pinches the bridge of his nose.
"Have you had a single mentor, master Mandrake, that hasn't set you up for failure in one way or another? That hasn't forced you to defy the odds and all reason to prove your worth, only to throw up even higher hurdles when you succeed?"
He has to think about that for a moment. He's not entirely sure he'd describe anyone as a 'mentor'. He's had various teachers, but if he opens it up too widely that could include Lovelace or possibly even Tallow. That is unacceptable, and doesn't change his answer.
"Books don't set you up."
They had been the only teachers he'd trusted, for a long time. That had probably been safer. Then there's the Barge - but that's different.
Arthur's expression just softens, a sympathetic tension around his blank eyes.
That really just answers so much.
"Are there any people- teachers, authorities or something- that you feel are worthy of your trust, or have earned it? Who haven't thrown you to the wolves?"
He almost says 'none that are alive', because that's almost true. But, instead, he's quiet for a long moment. He's not trying to review a list of names, this time, he's just struggling with what he wants to say.
His expression doesn't shift, apart from a subtle frown as his focus intensified. But his voice remains gentle, coaxing as he asks, "Would it be alright if I asked about them?"
"Ms. Lutyens. She was my art tutor." He runs a hand through his hair. "Underwood fired her when I was ten." Arthur knows that his first encounter with Lovelace was when he was ten. But Nathaniel doesn't draw a line between them out loud.
"Shortly after you first met Lovelace, correct?" He'll say it out for both of them, in that case, but his tone is still gentle. Clearly Underwood hadn't thought it sufficient punishment to let Nathaniel be humiliated in front of everyone he knew - he had to add to the fucking dog pile.
"I imagine she was still a strict teacher. I'm sorry you were forced to part with her so early - five years is a significant time to still dedicate her to your memory, especially in a positive light."
"I suppose you might say she was strict." All of his teachers have been strict, and she wasn't an exception. At the same time, she had been incredibly lenient in his mental comparison. Not just because her kindness had made everything easier.
Underwood had fired Ms. Lutyens after Lovelace, the punishment Nathaniel could never forgive. Not that he felt particularly forgiving about any of it. But letting her go wasn't just unforgivable because he'd liked her.
"She tried to protect me." The only person who has tried to protect him, really. The only person whose tried when they don't have any sort of responsibility or use for him, certainly.
"I suppose strict isn't a bad thing on its own," he can agree. "She sounds... kind. More so than most adults who've sullied your existence. Certainly more than any magician."
He's quiet for a moment, his thumb strumming silently across the pads of his fingers.
"I want to protect you, Nathaniel," he admits, soft but firm. "In as much as I am capable, in as far as you need it. From people like Underwood and Lovelace. You deserve to be protected- you don't have to do everything alone, relying only on demons that you believe will betray you at the first opportunity. I will continue to endeavour to earn your trust, so that you believe I want to help you, with no ulterior motive."
It's been five years. More, now. He hasn't thought of Ms. Lutyens often. He'd put those memories away, long ago. He'd used his scrying glass to see her. She'd had her life, the one that had always been much bigger than the art room or even the garden. He'd had important objectives to focus on. It's best not to think about his childhood, though that's not something he's been able to maintain on the Barge as he could back in the world where his identity had been properly separate.
Most of the time, he thinks it's better that have that division. The most of the memories are painful. The happiest ones cutting the deepest. Better for none of it to matter.
He hadn't wanted to do things alone. Even when he'd learned to hide more of himself, he'd still cared for Mrs. Underwood. As much as he'd hated Underwood, he hadn't been able to fully want to abandon him. Even after they'd died and the last parts of that life had burned in a final lesson - but it hadn't been, because he hadn't let go. He couldn't let Lovelace go free after what he'd done, and so he couldn't be free of Nathaniel. Even with everything he'd learned, he hadn't been able to think of Ms. Whitwell as just a step forward. He knows he hadn't, because if he had, he wouldn't have been stupid enough to get upset.
He has to do everything alone. Because a djinn who he knows would betray him at the first opportunity has been the only being he has been able to rely on. It's a choice, because if it's not it's just loss.
"I don't need protection." Not defensive, just tired. He feels that he should be defensive. He's worked hard to be capable, to not need anyone so it doesn't matter that there's no one there. But it's just - he doesn't know. Today, he's just tired.
"Perhaps not." He won't fight that Nathaniel thinks - knows, reasonably, that he's perfectly capable of defending himself. "But being willing to accept it when it's being offered is another skill entirely. Knowing when you are fully capable but allowing someone else who may be more... particular, more respectable without having to fight tooth and nail for it, is a valuable thing. But it does take... faith. And quite a lot of it, I'm afraid."
He gives a faint smile. "Certainly I know the idea of me being a guardian to you is... fraught, but I'd like if you considered the concept of me being your ally a little closer."
Nathaniel believes in a lot of things, with a tenacity that's both saved his life and endangered it. As well as making it difficult to get him to let go of any belief. Or even admit it when he's willing to hold onto a belief a little less tightly. Faith is a different matter, and not one he really wants to think about right now. Not when the flood is so close that it feels like it's a wound not properly healed.
The other part is a little less, well, fraught. He lets out something close to a laugh. "Is alley supposed to be less complicated? Things ended - as they did with my guardians. But they weren't supposed to. Not to that extent." Not when he doesn't think he betrayed them in a way that deserved an actual attempt on his life. "If I had an ally, I wouldn't have any right to be - to offer any objection. You can 'rely' on them as long as your interests align, and even then you know that that can change." As it happens, he does consider Arthur an ally.
Arthur just huffs. Of course he somehow managed to stumble into the single way best guaranteed to further complicate their whole relationship.
"Our interests align regardless of what you consider me - we both want you alive, and once you are I'd like to do my damn best to keep you that way. Whatever other disagreements we may have, or conflicting points of view, my priority is seeing you off this ship with the means to do whatever you desire, hopefully in a place where I get to witness you thriving. While I would love for there to be some way I could prove that your trust in me is not misplaced, the best I can do is offer my support - unconditional, whenever you see fit to draw from it, however you might need it. So long as you're doing your best, my interests will remain aligned with yours."
"They do." Nathaniel does, at least, trusts they have a common goal much more than he would in any other circumstance. He wants to live. Arthur gets his deal if Nathaniel lives. It's not impossible that they could become unpaired, it's happened before, but rarely enough that it's not high on his list of concerns. Most of the time. He considers arguing that he doesn't have any trust to be misplaced. But it wouldn't be a particularly advantageous argument. Or a true one. Even as he hates that his concerns over what it means to do his best aren't purely practical.
He does trust Arthur. He doesn't trust Arthur. He's not entirely sure what that even means. He doesn't know how anyone goes about trying to test something like that. If they were weak enough to want to. What would it be like to take a sickening dive when you can't fully bind someone's well being to yours?
"Which convinces me all the more that we probably should."
He knows it's a hard topic, he knows he's pushing, but unlike Parker he could never quite keep his curiosity in check.
"What problem is there with-- however it is you see me? I-I genuinely don't know what you need from me- certainly not what you want, because even with me practically prostrating myself to you, I don't think I've gotten a clear answer besides you don't want to see me hurt."
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timeasmymeasure
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Date: 2023-06-27 07:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-06-27 07:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-06-27 07:44 am (UTC)He shrugs a shoulder lightly. "Unfortunately the nature of both our worlds is that someone who is not in a position of power is required to work twice as hard, provide twice as much proof, hold evidence of twice as much legitimacy to be considered half as informed or useful. I know you understand this fully well, but I hope you also understand that I don't ask this of you." Or at least he tries very hard not to, because he wants Nathaniel to understand that Arthur does believe him. "And I'm afraid that wouldn't change were you to come home with me, but at least you would consistently have someone on your side to help push your gathered evidences as legitimate."
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Date: 2023-06-27 05:49 pm (UTC)"Ignoring information because someone is younger is stupid. But it can be safer, too. You just have to know how not to embarrass them." He doesn't like having to do that, but there's a lot of stuff he doesn't like that he knows he has to do. "I hate when they know I would be useful. People wouldn't send demons to try to hurt me if they didn't think I knew something. Whitwell might have got me into the department, but she would've killed me herself if I had embarrassed her by not being able to do the work." Which is different from leaving him to die because she was angry at him for going behind her back.
"People want to see me fail because they know I could succeed, and then they pull my age into it as if they hadn't spent the past year letting me do their thinking for them." Nathaniel would never let himself slide down his chair in front of Arthur, no matter that he couldn't see it, but he does tug at his hair in frustration. "If you're not useful you're discard and if you're too useful people will try to kill you. But I wish they wouldn't bring my age into it." He assumes everyone understand that line, but it makes being talked down to by people who want to hurt him because they know full well he could be useful is frustrating.
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Date: 2023-06-28 05:34 am (UTC)He gives a soft sigh, as he leans back a little in his chair. "So the problem is less about experience and capability, because we can see plainly that you are considered to be a threat, and more of maturity. Now-" he lifts a hand to forestall any indignation that may spawn from the comment. "I'm in no way saying that you go out of your way to act immaturely. But there is a certain kind of knowledge that can only be achieved through age, and it's simply a matter of the actual length of time lived. Despite your prodigious experiences, the ways in which you are quite adept at manipulating the adults around you to fall in line with your ideas--" with a raised eyebrow, a soft reminder that Arthur isn't going to fall for it. "--there is a level of maturity that is simply not possible for you to have when you're some forty or fifty years younger than your peers. You are still a teenager, and- physically, you aren't as- as developed, in the literal, physical sense, as an adult. And that lack thereof, of- maturity-- worldliness, I suppose, the breadth of experience - that is what is being marked against you."
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Date: 2023-06-28 06:04 am (UTC)"I know that there are some parts that are simply a matter of time." He'd been able to wait two years to carry out his revenge, because he hadn't been strong enough. He hadn't known enough. "Manipulating people requires knowing what people want, or what they want to see. It's obvious, sometimes, but not always." For example, the more incomprehensible someone is, the harder it is to figure out what they want. Especially in a closed environment. "With more experience, you have more chances. If you work at it. There are plenty of people who have the advantage of age but don't make an effort." It's still unbalanced, but he doesn't think he'll need to match their age to get that to even out. Of course, that can't be said for anyone who's made it to minister, whatever their other flaws, know what it takes to hold onto power.
"Limited experience is something that can be fixed."
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Date: 2023-06-28 06:32 am (UTC)He rests his chin on his hand, elbow propped on the table. "Have you ever noticed that you will often double down on your efforts when someone you respect challenges your experience, your capability? That you throw yourself into proving them wrong? Has it occurred to you that they're requesting it in such a way, undermining your lived experience, so as to get you to do their dirty work for yourself? Not a one of those bastards in Parliament would bother going to Prague themselves, but if they can send someone expendable to do the dirty work for them, they don't have to waste the time thinking about it at all."
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Date: 2023-06-28 06:52 am (UTC)"That's not manipulation. It's not making someone do something, without them knowing that you're the one doing that." In case they have a different definition of 'manipulation'. "Whitwell sent me to Prague because if I succeeded in finding something it would boos her reputation, and if I didn't then the blame could be put on me." She hadn't tried to hide that. I have to prove people wrong, whether I respect them or not, because it's my job. It's the only way to get ahead. Ministers wouldn't go themselves, because they don't have to. They've already proved that they're strong enough." He doesn't think 'do this or die' counts as manipulation. He just doesn't think it's wrong. "I'm not stupid. I had to get results, because failing is dangerous."
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Date: 2023-06-28 07:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-06-28 07:32 am (UTC)He had confessed to Lovelace because it had been the right thing to do. He'd been younger, back then. Besides, it wasn't as if it had worked. Careful lies are much more successful.
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Date: 2023-06-28 07:45 am (UTC)He does try not to swear in front of Nathaniel but he's fucking annoyed about magicians all over again, and he pinches the bridge of his nose.
"Have you had a single mentor, master Mandrake, that hasn't set you up for failure in one way or another? That hasn't forced you to defy the odds and all reason to prove your worth, only to throw up even higher hurdles when you succeed?"
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Date: 2023-06-28 07:55 am (UTC)"Books don't set you up."
They had been the only teachers he'd trusted, for a long time. That had probably been safer. Then there's the Barge - but that's different.
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Date: 2023-06-28 08:11 am (UTC)That really just answers so much.
"Are there any people- teachers, authorities or something- that you feel are worthy of your trust, or have earned it? Who haven't thrown you to the wolves?"
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Date: 2023-06-28 08:16 am (UTC)"There was one. But that was a long time ago."
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Date: 2023-06-28 08:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-06-28 08:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-06-28 08:46 am (UTC)"Shortly after you first met Lovelace, correct?" He'll say it out for both of them, in that case, but his tone is still gentle. Clearly Underwood hadn't thought it sufficient punishment to let Nathaniel be humiliated in front of everyone he knew - he had to add to the fucking dog pile.
"I imagine she was still a strict teacher. I'm sorry you were forced to part with her so early - five years is a significant time to still dedicate her to your memory, especially in a positive light."
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Date: 2023-06-28 04:59 pm (UTC)Underwood had fired Ms. Lutyens after Lovelace, the punishment Nathaniel could never forgive. Not that he felt particularly forgiving about any of it. But letting her go wasn't just unforgivable because he'd liked her.
"She tried to protect me." The only person who has tried to protect him, really. The only person whose tried when they don't have any sort of responsibility or use for him, certainly.
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Date: 2023-06-29 05:43 am (UTC)He's quiet for a moment, his thumb strumming silently across the pads of his fingers.
"I want to protect you, Nathaniel," he admits, soft but firm. "In as much as I am capable, in as far as you need it. From people like Underwood and Lovelace. You deserve to be protected- you don't have to do everything alone, relying only on demons that you believe will betray you at the first opportunity. I will continue to endeavour to earn your trust, so that you believe I want to help you, with no ulterior motive."
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Date: 2023-06-29 06:09 am (UTC)Most of the time, he thinks it's better that have that division. The most of the memories are painful. The happiest ones cutting the deepest. Better for none of it to matter.
He hadn't wanted to do things alone. Even when he'd learned to hide more of himself, he'd still cared for Mrs. Underwood. As much as he'd hated Underwood, he hadn't been able to fully want to abandon him. Even after they'd died and the last parts of that life had burned in a final lesson - but it hadn't been, because he hadn't let go. He couldn't let Lovelace go free after what he'd done, and so he couldn't be free of Nathaniel. Even with everything he'd learned, he hadn't been able to think of Ms. Whitwell as just a step forward. He knows he hadn't, because if he had, he wouldn't have been stupid enough to get upset.
He has to do everything alone. Because a djinn who he knows would betray him at the first opportunity has been the only being he has been able to rely on. It's a choice, because if it's not it's just loss.
"I don't need protection." Not defensive, just tired. He feels that he should be defensive. He's worked hard to be capable, to not need anyone so it doesn't matter that there's no one there. But it's just - he doesn't know. Today, he's just tired.
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Date: 2023-07-03 03:31 am (UTC)He gives a faint smile. "Certainly I know the idea of me being a guardian to you is... fraught, but I'd like if you considered the concept of me being your ally a little closer."
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Date: 2023-07-03 03:50 am (UTC)The other part is a little less, well, fraught. He lets out something close to a laugh. "Is alley supposed to be less complicated? Things ended - as they did with my guardians. But they weren't supposed to. Not to that extent." Not when he doesn't think he betrayed them in a way that deserved an actual attempt on his life. "If I had an ally, I wouldn't have any right to be - to offer any objection. You can 'rely' on them as long as your interests align, and even then you know that that can change." As it happens, he does consider Arthur an ally.
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Date: 2023-07-03 04:59 am (UTC)"Our interests align regardless of what you consider me - we both want you alive, and once you are I'd like to do my damn best to keep you that way. Whatever other disagreements we may have, or conflicting points of view, my priority is seeing you off this ship with the means to do whatever you desire, hopefully in a place where I get to witness you thriving. While I would love for there to be some way I could prove that your trust in me is not misplaced, the best I can do is offer my support - unconditional, whenever you see fit to draw from it, however you might need it. So long as you're doing your best, my interests will remain aligned with yours."
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Date: 2023-07-03 05:11 am (UTC)He does trust Arthur. He doesn't trust Arthur. He's not entirely sure what that even means. He doesn't know how anyone goes about trying to test something like that. If they were weak enough to want to. What would it be like to take a sickening dive when you can't fully bind someone's well being to yours?
"...I don't want to talk about this."
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Date: 2023-07-03 06:16 am (UTC)He knows it's a hard topic, he knows he's pushing, but unlike Parker he could never quite keep his curiosity in check.
"What problem is there with-- however it is you see me? I-I genuinely don't know what you need from me- certainly not what you want, because even with me practically prostrating myself to you, I don't think I've gotten a clear answer besides you don't want to see me hurt."
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