Nathaniel doesn't have any comparison he could make. But it's nice. No matter how much he would deny using such an imprecise term, even in his thoughts. It's been a very long time since there's been anyone he would chose to sit so close to. His usual tension isn't gone, nor the thrumming beat of the force that always pushes him forward. But some of the tension is unwound, just as he doesn't feel a need to leave this behind to do something more useful with his time.
"You can't make mistakes," quietly, almost to himself but not. "I know it can be easy to let emotion take control." He knows he's made his own mistakes, ones that he never wants to talk about. But that's all the more reason to hold onto any measure of control. "It can seem like there's no escape, even when you know there's always something. People are often dangerous. You need to survive." He doesn't see anything wrong in striking first, even as what that means can be complicated. "What you feel after... that's just something that people can use."
He can't match Arthur in speaking directly about some of his failures. Besides, it's better to push all of that away. Guilt is a weapon, and so you can't let anyone know. You can't let yourself feel guilty. All emotions should be hidden, but some you simply can't let yourself feel.
He knows Nathaniel isn't going to judge him for it (or at least, has already done so and therefore probably sees no point in reiterating the fact), but he's still glad that his ward doesn't comment on it. That instead they can keep focusing on trying to crack this flawed logic loop.
"Mistakes will always happen, Nathaniel." And it's soothing, the tone for a child after a nightmare, but genuine in the way where it's not condescending for it. "You can do everything right, but something outside of your control means your efforts are in the wrong. And that is not your fault. But - the more you tell yourself that you aren't allowed to make them, that you tell yourself you must do everything right... the higher the stakes become when something goes wrong."
His hand moves back to Nathaniel's crown, brushing a few strands behind his ear in the passing. "It is... more logical, then. If failure is inevitable, to prepare for it. Then if you do fail, you become aware of the options you can take, to... either mitigate the damage, or prepare for the new situation that creates. Because no mistake you make will ever be so grievous as to make me want to harm you as a repercussion."
Nathaniel doesn't agree that mistakes will always happen. It's possible to do everything correctly, and to have everything come out exactly as you want. All of his personal examples of that are on the small scale - especially compared to the mistakes - but it's easy to extrapolate from there. He's seen other people succeed in very large ways.
"The stakes are already high." He agrees with Arthur that the stakes can get higher, but when it's already life and death - it's just a matter of having less time to win. "You have to adapt more, but the stakes don't change." He happens to have adept new measures to deal with mistakes quite well on a number of occasions. Of course, it would be better if he hadn't needed to. But it's still impressive.
"I do prepare for - not complete success. But you don't know what you might have to do, until it happens. Sticking to what you think might go wrong leaves you open for things to go wrong in different ways." He pauses a moment. "I don't think you'd harm me. If I made a mistake." He can't say that he can believe fully in what Arthur might want, but he believes in his actions."
"Let us consider success to mean the desired outcome, for a situation or challenge," he says, soft and even. "And failure is of course the opposite- the lack of the desired outcome. Both of which can only considered definitive when the dust settles, so to speak - with the complete and total execution of a plan."
This way, success and failure themselves have no moral impetus.
"A mistake is- something going wrong, a misstep in planning or execution that reduces the chance of success. Sometimes to the point of rendering success impossible." He has to acknowledge that particular fact. "But while you can aim for success, or failure, mistakes are beyond our control. They can be information you had no way of knowing was required, actions you didn't know should not be taken. Someone acting against you in a way you couldn't predict, perhaps spontaneously or with malicious intent." He finds Nathaniel's fringe and brushes it aside delicately. "But even then, you can make no mistakes and still fail. Because your own stated outcome for success was not the same as the person who you are trying to succeed for."
Success and failure are the only the only type of morality that exists. Whether a magician is good or bad is meaningless, the only thing that matters is their power. Nathaniel doesn't have to be told this to know it's true.
He has been told this multiple times, but that's not relevant. Sometimes you just put stuff that is obviously true into words. In case someone might slip up and think that other things might be important. It's a very useful thing to be told, really.
"There are moments where things are truly outside of your control." Possibly. It's not totally impossible. "But most - mistakes are stuff that you could control. Gathering more information. Thinking of all possible outcomes of your behavior. Knowing who might act against you. That one can be difficult, if they're truly acting irrationally. But you should plan for that. And you're the only one who can set what it means to succeed." The last said with the absolute certainty of genuine belief.
"There will always be information that is out of reach. Either because you aren't aware it's there to be found or it's simply not possible for you to access." Which he is intimately aware of on a personal level. "But when you act on emotions, when you aren't aware that you're acting because of them - you can overlook facts, or assume information. Be unable to take information into account."
He gives a soft huff, shifting his hand to give Nathaniel another gentle positive scratch. "There is nothing so irrational as a person who claims to have no emotions. They are the most unpredictable, because they cannot say what they are feeling, or what that will cause them to do next."
"I don't think any person could really claim to have no emotions." There's no need to go into the number of emotions someone might have, but it's unlikely to be less than one.
"Perfect control over your emotions doesn't mean that someone can't make mistakes. Ms. Whitwell has a truly impressive amount of control. Perhaps I shouldn't say that it's a mistake to chose practicality over a gamble. But not all gambles are equal."
He totally could've managed to win. Then they'd all have seen how he didn't need any help. Or for his teachers to have any feelings for him.
"You cannot control your emotions," he repeats, because that feels like the most pertinent fact. "You might as well control your... your heart. There are techniques you can use to settle your pulse, certainly, to mask the sound of it o-or to simply ignore it, but you cannot stop it from beating. And to do so, to even attempt to, puts you in an incredibly disadvantageous position. You can identify the things that will cause your pulse to race or cause you upset, and learn to work around or avoid them, but that still means acknowledging that they are having an affect on you at all."
Now he dares to shift his own head, so he can rest his jaw gently against Nathaniel's head. Still stroking his hair, but hopefully not making him feel trapped. "I would like for you to be able to recognise when something or someone is causing you to feel bad. Even if you can't quite figure out why. Because when you do, we can try and work out what is causing it together." He gives a single soft huff. "A magician may be his own master, but there's nothing wrong with recruiting others for their intellectual resources."
"You can regulate your emotions," he says, frustrated but not to the point of shutting down. "Just as you can regulate your heart. Obviously, you can't shut off your heart. Yet you can't let it control you. It can affect your judgement, because we're connected with our bodies. If your heart races, it doesn't help you. That's why there are, as you've said, techniques to settle it."
Nathaniel is a master of recognizing when something makes him feels bad. For example, he feels a bit trapped - but it feels good. Which he's just as good at recognizing as when he feels bad. It's ridiculous to feel okay when there's any hindrance to being to move as fast as he could... but he does. Still, he does draw back a little. There's a limit to how much he can allow himself.
"I know when something makes me feel bad. I only act when it's necessary, but that's just because most of the time you just have to live with how you feel. It doesn't matter."
Ah, he might have pushed his luck there. He lifts his head and straightens a bit, but he keeps his arm wrapped around Nathaniel, on his shoulder again to give him some breathing space.
"How you feel does matter," he counters readily. "And if there are ways that we can minimise the moments and interactions that make you feel bad, or insulted, then we have a moral imperative to try and do so. I fail to see the logic in letting other people bring you down if there are ways you can prevent it," he adds dryly. "I'd like to help you live with more good feelings than bad. You deserve that as much as anyone else."
'Moral imperative' is such a strange phrase that Nathaniel has to put that aside for the moment. There are some things that take a while before it's even possible to ask for a straightforward definition.
"No one here has ever brought me down." That would suggest that any insult here could cut so deep. Which it definitely can't. "Besides, I do live with more good feelings than bad. It's simply not possible to always feel that way." He, generously, decides that no one could be that stupid.
"It's possible. Especially in the case of sadness. It can be so present for so long that you... become numb to it. And then it becomes difficult to identify anything."
Nathaniel would like to say that he's never been sad, but that's not quite true. There have been times when he's been upset, and not just angry at the situation. The occasional moment is probably normal.
"But you can't just let yourself only be sad. That would be unproductive." In a life free of religion, he still has a concept of one sin. "There's usually other things to concentrate on if your upset, and that's better." His incredibly productive ways of dealing with being upset are all the example anyone needs, really.
"Yes, well. The problem is that certain kinds of sadness don't go away even when you are productive. There's certainly satisfaction to be found in completing tasks despite this more pervasive melancholy, but without more... even with the best of distractions, it can exist and lurk over your shoulder, waiting to set your own mind against yourself."
He takes a deep breath, letting it out slowly. "Not everyone has this, I'm aware. But it's a thing to be wary of, that... sometimes it can be extremely innocuous items that can set off such a heavy sadness. To be able to identify these, as much as you can, to the best of your ability, is a way to- to maintain your productiveness, I suppose. To be able to cover your own weaknesses."
"I don't know what you mean." There's no sadness that doesn't go away. Yes, there's the normal emptiness that almost always lingers in the background, an eternal pull into a grayness of nothing. An overcoat that can be ignore - as long as you move fast enough.
It's a dismal feeling, if not properly ignored, but it's not sadness. Besides, everyone does have that so it can't just be a mismatch of definitions.
"Well, sadness is- I-I'm using it as a bit of a catch-all term, really, for anything negative that's not anger or fear." Which, as he says out loud, is a mistake. "It can- it can really feel different, for everyone. Often, I've found in these- melancholies, it's more of a... a fugue state. It's not the lack of desire to do things, it's the lack of desire. A heavy weight on my mind, like a fog, that makes it... difficult to see what I can do, or anything worth doing."
He shrugs, shifting Nathaniel slightly with it. "Though of course you might not feel any of that."
"No, I've never felt that." A quick response, but not an immediate one. It's an answer he can offer with genuine certainty.
Enough certainty that he feels comfortable thinking about Arthur's words.
"When I have something to do, I can always do it." Emotions that can circle when he doesn't have something to do, or feels uncertain about his course of action... obviously, it's simply why everyone needs a proper occupation. Work, real work, gives the world a wonderful shining clarity.
"No, no, I'm quite the same," he chuckles. "It's always been when Parker and I were between jobs that I started having... difficulty, beating back those thoughts."
Nathaniel regains a little more tension. It's not fear, but the moment between deciding whether to speak or not.
"I was confined to my room for a month, once." Matter of fact, as he is constantly beset by unfair responses to his actions and so mostly chooses to paint them with the same brush. It's better that way. Besides, it was a long time ago so serves well enough as something to try to use for an 'encouraging' story. "I didn't have anything to do. There weren't any lessons or books or any sort of contact with people. But I managed to find some paper and a pen that had been missed. I think that's when I truly realized that I could create my own work, instead of simply going beyond what was already assigned."
Alright, it's more a story of his own talents than encouragement, perhaps, but it is also an acknowledgement of the possibility of expansion.
It takes a lot of effort not to tense when Nathaniel says that. He already knows it, objectively, but it's still galling to hear it spoken with such a dispassionate tone. Instead he gives Nathaniel's shoulder a gentle squeeze, turning the motion into a gentle rub across the back of his shoulders.
"While I wish you had learned that under... more positive circumstances," he admits, "that is a useful thing to know about yourself. And- well, honestly, that explains quite a lot of your independence. You were young when that happened, weren't you?"
"I was ten." It had been the first time since his apprenticeship had started that his days hadn't been full of work. It had been the first time without any order to his days in a deeper way, too. He had refused to consider Underwood as his master, not after he had failed to fulfill his part of the bargain that Nathaniel had been taught. But he'd found his way back to that, too. The careful list that had been the start of his revenge had been a tie to sanity, in more ways than one.
Okay that arm gets wrapped around Nathaniel's shoulder and pulls him against Arthur's side in another hug.
"Nathaniel." His tone is gentle, but uneasy. "It is... a well known fact about humans, that we suffer if we are not in contact with other humans. It is used as punishment, in prisons, to- to lock people in solitary confinement, until they are so numb to the world that they... they no longer react correctly when they are released."
"From what I've learned about long term imprisonment as a punishment for crimes, it seems a questionable practice." Do you know what being slowly tortured to death over a few days is? A few days. ...Arthur probably isn't bringing that up as a random fact unconnected to Nathaniel's story. "Many magicians chose to spend a lot of their time alone, in study." He has, obviously, chosen a more active and 'social' work, but the general point stands. Also he reacts correctly in every situation, so that's not a problem.
"But that is the difference, the magician chooses solitude. He chooses to sequester himself to avoid interaction, but he can still leave at any point under his own power and re-enter civilisation."
He runs his hand down Nathaniel's arm in a gentle pat, and it's hard to say if he's trying to soothe himself or Nathaniel. "When you don't have the choice to leave, when you know it is a punishment. That is when it becomes harmful. A way to... to break your very mind to pieces. No child should ever be forced into that situation."
"Well, yes, that's what Underwood wanted. Otherwise he would just stopped after the other penalties. But it didn't work." Not that Nathaniel doesn't consider himself a good liar, but he is aware that Underwood believed in his deference and 'slowness' because that had been the effect he'd wanted to achieve. The act had been lies, so Nathaniel hadn't been harmed.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2023-09-27 06:28 am (UTC)"You can't make mistakes," quietly, almost to himself but not. "I know it can be easy to let emotion take control." He knows he's made his own mistakes, ones that he never wants to talk about. But that's all the more reason to hold onto any measure of control. "It can seem like there's no escape, even when you know there's always something. People are often dangerous. You need to survive." He doesn't see anything wrong in striking first, even as what that means can be complicated. "What you feel after... that's just something that people can use."
He can't match Arthur in speaking directly about some of his failures. Besides, it's better to push all of that away. Guilt is a weapon, and so you can't let anyone know. You can't let yourself feel guilty. All emotions should be hidden, but some you simply can't let yourself feel.
no subject
Date: 2023-09-27 06:50 am (UTC)"Mistakes will always happen, Nathaniel." And it's soothing, the tone for a child after a nightmare, but genuine in the way where it's not condescending for it. "You can do everything right, but something outside of your control means your efforts are in the wrong. And that is not your fault. But - the more you tell yourself that you aren't allowed to make them, that you tell yourself you must do everything right... the higher the stakes become when something goes wrong."
His hand moves back to Nathaniel's crown, brushing a few strands behind his ear in the passing. "It is... more logical, then. If failure is inevitable, to prepare for it. Then if you do fail, you become aware of the options you can take, to... either mitigate the damage, or prepare for the new situation that creates. Because no mistake you make will ever be so grievous as to make me want to harm you as a repercussion."
no subject
Date: 2023-09-27 07:05 am (UTC)"The stakes are already high." He agrees with Arthur that the stakes can get higher, but when it's already life and death - it's just a matter of having less time to win. "You have to adapt more, but the stakes don't change." He happens to have adept new measures to deal with mistakes quite well on a number of occasions. Of course, it would be better if he hadn't needed to. But it's still impressive.
"I do prepare for - not complete success. But you don't know what you might have to do, until it happens. Sticking to what you think might go wrong leaves you open for things to go wrong in different ways." He pauses a moment. "I don't think you'd harm me. If I made a mistake." He can't say that he can believe fully in what Arthur might want, but he believes in his actions."
no subject
Date: 2023-09-27 07:24 am (UTC)"Let us consider success to mean the desired outcome, for a situation or challenge," he says, soft and even. "And failure is of course the opposite- the lack of the desired outcome. Both of which can only considered definitive when the dust settles, so to speak - with the complete and total execution of a plan."
This way, success and failure themselves have no moral impetus.
"A mistake is- something going wrong, a misstep in planning or execution that reduces the chance of success. Sometimes to the point of rendering success impossible." He has to acknowledge that particular fact. "But while you can aim for success, or failure, mistakes are beyond our control. They can be information you had no way of knowing was required, actions you didn't know should not be taken. Someone acting against you in a way you couldn't predict, perhaps spontaneously or with malicious intent." He finds Nathaniel's fringe and brushes it aside delicately. "But even then, you can make no mistakes and still fail. Because your own stated outcome for success was not the same as the person who you are trying to succeed for."
no subject
Date: 2023-09-27 07:37 am (UTC)He has been told this multiple times, but that's not relevant. Sometimes you just put stuff that is obviously true into words. In case someone might slip up and think that other things might be important. It's a very useful thing to be told, really.
"There are moments where things are truly outside of your control." Possibly. It's not totally impossible. "But most - mistakes are stuff that you could control. Gathering more information. Thinking of all possible outcomes of your behavior. Knowing who might act against you. That one can be difficult, if they're truly acting irrationally. But you should plan for that. And you're the only one who can set what it means to succeed." The last said with the absolute certainty of genuine belief.
no subject
Date: 2023-09-27 07:47 am (UTC)He gives a soft huff, shifting his hand to give Nathaniel another gentle positive scratch. "There is nothing so irrational as a person who claims to have no emotions. They are the most unpredictable, because they cannot say what they are feeling, or what that will cause them to do next."
no subject
Date: 2023-09-27 07:59 am (UTC)"Perfect control over your emotions doesn't mean that someone can't make mistakes. Ms. Whitwell has a truly impressive amount of control. Perhaps I shouldn't say that it's a mistake to chose practicality over a gamble. But not all gambles are equal."
He totally could've managed to win. Then they'd all have seen how he didn't need any help. Or for his teachers to have any feelings for him.
no subject
Date: 2023-09-27 10:18 am (UTC)Now he dares to shift his own head, so he can rest his jaw gently against Nathaniel's head. Still stroking his hair, but hopefully not making him feel trapped. "I would like for you to be able to recognise when something or someone is causing you to feel bad. Even if you can't quite figure out why. Because when you do, we can try and work out what is causing it together." He gives a single soft huff. "A magician may be his own master, but there's nothing wrong with recruiting others for their intellectual resources."
no subject
Date: 2023-09-27 05:19 pm (UTC)Nathaniel is a master of recognizing when something makes him feels bad. For example, he feels a bit trapped - but it feels good. Which he's just as good at recognizing as when he feels bad. It's ridiculous to feel okay when there's any hindrance to being to move as fast as he could... but he does. Still, he does draw back a little. There's a limit to how much he can allow himself.
"I know when something makes me feel bad. I only act when it's necessary, but that's just because most of the time you just have to live with how you feel. It doesn't matter."
no subject
Date: 2023-10-02 06:30 am (UTC)"How you feel does matter," he counters readily. "And if there are ways that we can minimise the moments and interactions that make you feel bad, or insulted, then we have a moral imperative to try and do so. I fail to see the logic in letting other people bring you down if there are ways you can prevent it," he adds dryly. "I'd like to help you live with more good feelings than bad. You deserve that as much as anyone else."
no subject
Date: 2023-10-02 06:38 am (UTC)"No one here has ever brought me down." That would suggest that any insult here could cut so deep. Which it definitely can't. "Besides, I do live with more good feelings than bad. It's simply not possible to always feel that way." He, generously, decides that no one could be that stupid.
no subject
Date: 2023-10-02 07:21 am (UTC)"It's possible. Especially in the case of sadness. It can be so present for so long that you... become numb to it. And then it becomes difficult to identify anything."
no subject
Date: 2023-10-02 07:28 am (UTC)"But you can't just let yourself only be sad. That would be unproductive." In a life free of religion, he still has a concept of one sin. "There's usually other things to concentrate on if your upset, and that's better." His incredibly productive ways of dealing with being upset are all the example anyone needs, really.
no subject
Date: 2023-10-03 04:08 am (UTC)He takes a deep breath, letting it out slowly. "Not everyone has this, I'm aware. But it's a thing to be wary of, that... sometimes it can be extremely innocuous items that can set off such a heavy sadness. To be able to identify these, as much as you can, to the best of your ability, is a way to- to maintain your productiveness, I suppose. To be able to cover your own weaknesses."
no subject
Date: 2023-10-03 04:13 am (UTC)"I don't know what you mean." There's no sadness that doesn't go away. Yes, there's the normal emptiness that almost always lingers in the background, an eternal pull into a grayness of nothing. An overcoat that can be ignore - as long as you move fast enough.
It's a dismal feeling, if not properly ignored, but it's not sadness. Besides, everyone does have that so it can't just be a mismatch of definitions.
no subject
Date: 2023-10-03 05:19 am (UTC)He shrugs, shifting Nathaniel slightly with it. "Though of course you might not feel any of that."
no subject
Date: 2023-10-03 05:31 am (UTC)Enough certainty that he feels comfortable thinking about Arthur's words.
"When I have something to do, I can always do it." Emotions that can circle when he doesn't have something to do, or feels uncertain about his course of action... obviously, it's simply why everyone needs a proper occupation. Work, real work, gives the world a wonderful shining clarity.
no subject
Date: 2023-10-03 06:54 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-10-03 07:06 am (UTC)"I was confined to my room for a month, once." Matter of fact, as he is constantly beset by unfair responses to his actions and so mostly chooses to paint them with the same brush. It's better that way. Besides, it was a long time ago so serves well enough as something to try to use for an 'encouraging' story. "I didn't have anything to do. There weren't any lessons or books or any sort of contact with people. But I managed to find some paper and a pen that had been missed. I think that's when I truly realized that I could create my own work, instead of simply going beyond what was already assigned."
Alright, it's more a story of his own talents than encouragement, perhaps, but it is also an acknowledgement of the possibility of expansion.
no subject
Date: 2023-10-03 07:11 am (UTC)"While I wish you had learned that under... more positive circumstances," he admits, "that is a useful thing to know about yourself. And- well, honestly, that explains quite a lot of your independence. You were young when that happened, weren't you?"
no subject
Date: 2023-10-03 07:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-10-03 07:27 am (UTC)"Nathaniel." His tone is gentle, but uneasy. "It is... a well known fact about humans, that we suffer if we are not in contact with other humans. It is used as punishment, in prisons, to- to lock people in solitary confinement, until they are so numb to the world that they... they no longer react correctly when they are released."
no subject
Date: 2023-10-03 07:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-10-03 08:20 am (UTC)He runs his hand down Nathaniel's arm in a gentle pat, and it's hard to say if he's trying to soothe himself or Nathaniel. "When you don't have the choice to leave, when you know it is a punishment. That is when it becomes harmful. A way to... to break your very mind to pieces. No child should ever be forced into that situation."
no subject
Date: 2023-10-03 08:31 am (UTC)(no subject)
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