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[mandrakeroot]

Mandrake here.

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[lestercraft]

Perks of being blind: immune to shitty little greasers.

"In my world, magic is the sole purview of creatures from beyond the realm of humanity, and those who would be so bold or- or reckless as to tap into their powers to try and gain control of those, to their own ends. Those who follow these paths will almost certainly fall prey to something so impossible to fathom that even attempting to understand it could drive a man to insanity."

And also they're right assholes about it.

[mandrakeroot]

"It sounds like in your world, you'd be stupid to pursue magic. So I'm sure there are plenty who do."

Arthur's words are nice and dramatic, but so blatantly a different situation than what Nathaniel's used to that he doesn't feel any need to defend the good name of magicians.

That every world has a large collection of idiots isn't exactly new information.

[lestercraft]

That makes him snort. "Stupid or obsessed with power and little else. Frankly I don't see much of a difference."

Of course there's stupid people in every universe. His John would argue he's one of them sometimes, with the decisions he makes.

[mandrakeroot]

"If you have repeated evidence that it drives you insane, then there is no difference between thinking it'll grant you power and stupidity."

There's nothing wrong with wanting power, but the point is so you can do something with it.

"Being a magician can be dangerous, of course. There's a reason we have extensive training, after all. But it's not going to drive anyone mad. Get a leg ripped off because you failed to read basic instructions, possibly."

Stupid people in every universe and in every profession.

[lestercraft]

"Ah, but therein lies the problem. This form of magic, these creatures that people try and use to power themselves. The majority of the human populace isn't aware they exist - it's sheer dumb luck that I happened to learn about it myself."

Not that he's at the point where he's learned that's an outright fabrication.

"And frankly they're rather better for not knowing. To have one of them be aware of you in some way is enough to land yourself in the way of incredible harm." He hums dryly. "Though perhaps my relationship with my John is different in some way, seeing as he himself was being actively sought after by an immensely powerful being of pure madness."

[mandrakeroot]

'John Doe' provides at least five reasons that Nathaniel would rather stick to his last name.

"That's exactly why it's much more sensible to have a system. And if you can't have a workable system because of those who have any talent at it being driven insane or dying, then there's all the proof you need of poor planning."

He's perfectly capable of being polite, and he feels that not engaging in the nature of the demon Arthur's sharing space with is the best way to remain polite.

[lestercraft]

"I'm not sure how much planning you can do around that one," he comments, perhaps a touch snidely. Because God knows he'd tried. "So how does magic work in your world, then, that you've got entire systems set up to prepare for it, apprenticeships and everything?"

[mandrakeroot]

"A good deal of it," that is, all of it, "Is about controlling demons. So you spend your time as an apprentice learning all the ways to deal with them. Though, as a magician, you generally spend more time working in the government, so you have to learn what you need for that, too."

[lestercraft]

...that's so much to hear at once.

"Sorry, you-- as a wizard, your skills revolve around controlling demons? For the British government?"

[mandrakeroot]

"As a magician, yes. Magicians are always part of any good government."

[lestercraft]

"I can say with confidence that magicians are not a part of any government I'm aware of on my world," he offers readily. "So why does the government require demon wranglers? Those aren't the source of your magic, are they?"

[mandrakeroot]

"Yes, but we've already established that magicians from your world would be incapable of running a functioning government." Two sure signs of a less civilized world. "It's a source for a large part of it, so one reason is protection. We're not the only country in the world, and it takes a good deal of work to stop attacks from others. I think I might not have been clear - the majority of the government is magicians. The ministers and the like, at least."

[lestercraft]

That gets a long pause, as Arthur's brow furrows deeply.

"So this group you find umbrage with for their disrespect and power over you is fucking Westminster?"

[mandrakeroot]

"No, it's not a group. It's individuals who misuse their power. As you've said, we're all part of a system, that's not the same as the system being the problem."

[lestercraft]

"Individuals misusing their power is a separate issue to that power being legitimate," he points out, "but if we're questioning whether the system is a problem or not, the fact that so many can abuse the power it gives them should be indicative of a much larger problem than just your own self being targeted."

[mandrakeroot]

Depending on the person, and situation, Nathaniel does believe it's reasonable to listen to an argument without immediately dismissing it. So he considers Arthur's words seriously, before dismissing it. "I've listened to people talk about their worlds. Seeing as, by the nature of this place, it's not exactly a random selection, I've also done my best to read about other worlds. Of course, that only goes so far, but I've yet to run across any sort of power that doesn't contain the possibility that people will abuse it." He considers the system he interacts with on his world to be a lot fairer, as well as better, than most others, but he doesn't have to be impolite.

[lestercraft]

"Please make no mistake, I'm not saying that people won't abuse power, if the right personality is given the right opportunity." He's not going to pretend otherwise, people are horrible. "But there are certainly systems which can enable a much more efficient abuse of power. And I must say, a system that encourages imprisonment and 'might makes right' will certainly produce a series of persons in which power is the only language they understand, and any threats to that are a personal, not professional affront."

[mandrakeroot]

Nathaniel does his best to focus on the future, while also keeping an eye on the future, but he can't quite help a pang of homesickness at Arthur's words. He can remember standing in front of the senior magicians with the shadow of the Well of Remorse hanging over him as if it was yesterday.

But that might does make right isn't something he'd try to argue, even if Arthur wasn't in a position of power over him. You don't get ahead by trying to pull someone up with you.

"It does seem to be a lot about what's rewarded."

[lestercraft]

"Cruelty is rewarded, Mister Mandrake," he says bluntly. "With no consideration for the collateral that these cruelties inflict. Your system condones kidnapping and slavery of creatures you have minimal understanding of, cruelty to children - not to mention the obvious sense of superiority to the non-magical masses your parliament is supposed to be protecting."

[mandrakeroot]

Cruelty is rewarded if you're strong, the weak fall. It all works out quite well, and is best for all those that are by protected by those strong enough to be in charge. Arthur clearly doesn't think so, which is useful to know. "It is unfortunate that people are hurt by it." Arthur is in charge, if just in a temporary sense, he's not the worst person Nathaniel has had to agree with.

[lestercraft]

Arthur's frown shifts, no longer annoyed but baffled, and he pointedly turns his head to face Nathaniel better, even if his eyes are still flicking down more towards Nathaniel's mouth.

"...I imagine you don't take umbrage with the fact that the people who aren't in power - who aren't members of the Parliament, non-magicians. Their loss and pain is acceptable as compared to the good you feel is done by Parliament in doing so."

[mandrakeroot]

"I don't know why you think non-magicians are suffering - suffering more than people always suffer, but if that was true it would be bad."

[lestercraft]

"Can you tell me that you genuinely believe that an individual magician wouldn't use his powers to threaten or undermine a non-magician, if they were in the way of something the magician wanted?"

[mandrakeroot]

Nathaniel folds his hands, expression and posture the old mix of obedient without falling into overly deferential. It doesn't matter that Arthur can't see it, it's more muscle memory than anything. "I wouldn't say that. But I would say that I think your - opinion on the matter is shaped by your experience with magicians in your world, and that you're projecting that onto what I've said about my world."

[lestercraft]

"Thankfully I've not had the luxury of meeting an actual magician in my world," he says dryly, conveniently leaving out the entire fucking cult that nearly got him consumed by an eldritch horror. "So my 'projecting', as you call it, is nothing more than my experience of men who hold power, their misuse of it, and the lack of care towards the people they're supposed to be protecting with said power."

He rests his elbow on the table and leans gently into it, a habitual motion more than one he would see the effect of. "And I can say with unbiased confidence that a government that would be so ready to abuse its citizens with that power is worth nothing less than complete contempt, because they cannot even abide by the basic tenets of which their positions are designed to uphold."